CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 3)
Discussion
ORD said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
We should be used by now to the fact that very many scientists working in this area are appalling at basic reasoning.Most of the paper is based on the unarticulated premise that asymptomatic transmission is common. It’s in fact rare. Aside from that, it’s almost pure assertion with some GCSE maths thrown in.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I have read a fair amount about the quality of the air recirculating systems on planes. There is no evidence of transmission on planes at all, which is believed to be due to the very high standards of filtration. On that basis, the anecdote that a mask wearer did not infect others is meaningless. That paper is a philosophical argument, not a scientific analysis.
Elysium said:
That paper is a philosophical argument, not a scientific analysis.
Yes, because the data doesn't exist to either prove or disprove that wearing of masks is helpful. Some people will take a risk adverse view and say that until proven otherwise we should wear them because they could reduce transmission, whereas others will say that is unnecessary. People rubbishing her paper are doing so from a philosophical view point too, don't forget that.
I don't especially like wearing a mask, however having been abroad to somewhere masks are mandatory, and having also seen how relaxed their restrictions were, I would take having a country which is open for business if that means wearing a mask, than one which is closed because transmission is higher than it could be. Most rational people are the same.
grumbledoak said:
Most people have had time to lose four stone in lockdown, if the government gave two craps and explained it. They won't.
It's worth remembering that we were pretty thin in the seventies, and what happened around 1980 that changed.
I've had a years worth of snacky snacks in 5 months!It's worth remembering that we were pretty thin in the seventies, and what happened around 1980 that changed.
And went to a restaurant today.
It was nice.
Condi said:
Yes, because the data doesn't exist to either prove or disprove that wearing of masks is helpful. Some people will take a risk adverse view and say that until proven otherwise we should wear them because they could reduce transmission, whereas others will say that is unnecessary.
Royal Society published a report that summarised some of the evidence. Some of the work in this area is quite old.https://rs-delve.github.io/addenda/2020/07/07/mask...
OzzyR1 said:
Why is that pivotal?
I've thought the bloke is a bellend for the last few years, wearing a mask isn't going to sway my opinion.
I would imagine the president of the USA wearing a mask in public for the first time, has some marginal impact on mask sentiment there.I've thought the bloke is a bellend for the last few years, wearing a mask isn't going to sway my opinion.
Boris did the same yesterday. It's probably not a coincidence.
Condi said:
Elysium said:
That paper is a philosophical argument, not a scientific analysis.
Yes, because the data doesn't exist to either prove or disprove that wearing of masks is helpful. Some people will take a risk adverse view and say that until proven otherwise we should wear them because they could reduce transmission, whereas others will say that is unnecessary. People rubbishing her paper are doing so from a philosophical view point too, don't forget that.
I don't especially like wearing a mask, however having been abroad to somewhere masks are mandatory, and having also seen how relaxed their restrictions were, I would take having a country which is open for business if that means wearing a mask, than one which is closed because transmission is higher than it could be. Most rational people are the same.
Public health people will see anything as better than nothing and recommend them. But that’s because they have a narrow focus. The bigger picture presents some doubts. The sort of masks being used are quite poor and people are messing with them and not washing or replacing them regularly enough. Masks also create problems for society and vulnerable people in particular.
On that basis, I do not support making this mandatory
I think the choice you present, at this point in the epidemic is a false one. We can open up now without masks. Sweden confirms this, they are no worse off than us and they have never lockdown or forced the use of masks.
Some people in academia very much have an axe to grind and agendas to push.
I recall a lecturer being brought in by a university course leader to tell the group how a London-wide (i.e. inside the M25) road use charging scheme would be an excellent idea. The real agenda of the guest became clear after the lecture, when they made an off-the-cuff comment about "I don't understand why people are allowed to own cars anyway."
They were just another car- and mobility-hating cycling socialist nutter living in a fantasy world, trying to use any platform they could to push their anti-capitalist, anti-mobility agenda.
The fact they were brought in by the course leader to brainwash, sorry, lecture students on the socialist fantasy betrayed the ideology of the course leader.
Not everyone in academia has an agenda, and many are able to see both/all sides of an argument, but having letters after one's name most certainly does not preclude a biased viewpoint.
I recall a lecturer being brought in by a university course leader to tell the group how a London-wide (i.e. inside the M25) road use charging scheme would be an excellent idea. The real agenda of the guest became clear after the lecture, when they made an off-the-cuff comment about "I don't understand why people are allowed to own cars anyway."
They were just another car- and mobility-hating cycling socialist nutter living in a fantasy world, trying to use any platform they could to push their anti-capitalist, anti-mobility agenda.
The fact they were brought in by the course leader to brainwash, sorry, lecture students on the socialist fantasy betrayed the ideology of the course leader.
Not everyone in academia has an agenda, and many are able to see both/all sides of an argument, but having letters after one's name most certainly does not preclude a biased viewpoint.
sambucket said:
" President Trump wears mask in public for the first time during visit to Walter Reed Medical Center"
Quite a pivotal moment today, I'd say.
Probably something to do with this.
It’s fascinating to see how you have pivoted quite effortlessly from trolling this thread as a lockdown zealot to now being the resident mask fetishist. Quite a pivotal moment today, I'd say.
Probably something to do with this.
I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
It is quite alien to me.
So if masks are made mandatory...what's the exit strategy? What conditions would need to be met?
I don't care about masks that much and will wear one if required but I would want to know under what conditions that restriction would end otherwise it's going to just be another cluster f
k to add to the list
I don't care about masks that much and will wear one if required but I would want to know under what conditions that restriction would end otherwise it's going to just be another cluster f
k to add to the list Elysium said:
It’s fascinating to see how you have pivoted quite effortlessly from trolling this thread as a lockdown zealot to now being the resident mask fetishist.
I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
It is quite alien to me.
I prefer, the resident 'I don't want a second lockdown that will devastate the economy further' fetishist. I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
It is quite alien to me.
You seem to think the risk not worth mitigating.
sambucket said:
Elysium said:
It’s fascinating to see how you have pivoted quite effortlessly from trolling this thread as a lockdown zealot to now being the resident mask fetishist.
I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
It is quite alien to me.
I prefer, the resident 'I don't want a second lockdown that will devastate the economy further' fetishist. I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
It is quite alien to me.
You seem to think the risk not worth mitigating.
I don't.
And I don't believe that is your motivation. A few days ago you said you wanted to turn England into Alcatraz. Now you say you don't want a second lockdown.
One of those things is a lie.
smashing said:
So if masks are made mandatory...what's the exit strategy? What conditions would need to be met?
I don't care about masks that much and will wear one if required but I would want to know under what conditions that restriction would end otherwise it's going to just be another cluster fk to add to the list
Basically, we will stop when other countries stop. We are like scared children copying what everyone else is doing. I don't care about masks that much and will wear one if required but I would want to know under what conditions that restriction would end otherwise it's going to just be another cluster f
k to add to the list No thought, no strategy. Nothing rational.
MaxFromage said:
Thankfully it was a pleasurable evening, with the only changes relating to the number of tables and booking split into sessions.The owner was getting busier each day and is hopeful things will continue to improve.
Spoke to a few people and they are likely to only visit the more 'relaxed' places. If the scared stay scared, it appears the more 'covid secure' establishments are going to suffer.
This is logical. The sort of people who are sSpoke to a few people and they are likely to only visit the more 'relaxed' places. If the scared stay scared, it appears the more 'covid secure' establishments are going to suffer.
t scared won’t be going out anyway. People who aren’t st scared will want a night out that doesn’t involve silly measures and some goon telling everyone to wear a mask.Went to the local last night, the only real difference was table service, which was a bit weird, and I’m not sure how it reduces the chance of infection.
Was out for dinner last night in a busy diner type establishment. You know the sort, a small cohort of different style restaurants beside the cinema. Hearty American style food, fast throughout type place, whereas last weekend was a small traditional family dining restaurant.
A few tables had disappeared along with the ice cream counter. Fine. Automatic alco dispensers at the door and toilet entrances. Ok, can live with that. Had to queue briefly to get in as it was pretty much full and they don’t do bookings - fair enough, good sign.
But the mask wearing staff. Oh man, it was terrible. Continuous fiddling with them. Up and down and adjusting and stroking beards when down. Then up, serve food to table. Down again at bar. Oh and factor in lifting your glass from tray to table by holding the rim. It felt like perhaps the air con was off too which compounded the general heat in the place.
By contrast last weekends dining establishment had gone for visors. Older service staff - still fiddled with visors, but minimally in comparison, simply because it was much slower paced restaurant and they weren’t rushing about tending to as many tables.
I guess what I’m saying is, never mind what papers or journals say, go and watch people’s behaviours with masks. It’s not pretty, and surely the poor practice must offset any kind of marginal benefit that is being cited.
Taking the old common sense approach again, I’d far rather we just focused on keeping our hands clean. Like we should do as decent human beings.
A few tables had disappeared along with the ice cream counter. Fine. Automatic alco dispensers at the door and toilet entrances. Ok, can live with that. Had to queue briefly to get in as it was pretty much full and they don’t do bookings - fair enough, good sign.
But the mask wearing staff. Oh man, it was terrible. Continuous fiddling with them. Up and down and adjusting and stroking beards when down. Then up, serve food to table. Down again at bar. Oh and factor in lifting your glass from tray to table by holding the rim. It felt like perhaps the air con was off too which compounded the general heat in the place.
By contrast last weekends dining establishment had gone for visors. Older service staff - still fiddled with visors, but minimally in comparison, simply because it was much slower paced restaurant and they weren’t rushing about tending to as many tables.
I guess what I’m saying is, never mind what papers or journals say, go and watch people’s behaviours with masks. It’s not pretty, and surely the poor practice must offset any kind of marginal benefit that is being cited.
Taking the old common sense approach again, I’d far rather we just focused on keeping our hands clean. Like we should do as decent human beings.
Dropped in to the local Indian to order a takeaway, ended up sitting there for an hour (nice to get a pint or two down!)
Very busy, with tables spaced out nicely, and none of the customers wearing masks, at all.
On the other hand, all the staff had masks. Well, they all had masks around their necks or on top of their beards or on top of their heads or in their hands or in all those places at one time or another. None of them were single use medical masks, and the amount of touching of masks, touching of plates, card machines, cash, receipts, towels, chairs, door handles etc.. in between mask fiddling surely renders mandatory mask wearing absolutely useless.
I will not be going in any shop or other place that requires a mask unless its a medical setting. Its just not going to happen.
Very busy, with tables spaced out nicely, and none of the customers wearing masks, at all.
On the other hand, all the staff had masks. Well, they all had masks around their necks or on top of their beards or on top of their heads or in their hands or in all those places at one time or another. None of them were single use medical masks, and the amount of touching of masks, touching of plates, card machines, cash, receipts, towels, chairs, door handles etc.. in between mask fiddling surely renders mandatory mask wearing absolutely useless.
I will not be going in any shop or other place that requires a mask unless its a medical setting. Its just not going to happen.
Elysium said:
It’s fascinating to see how you have pivoted quite effortlessly from trolling this thread as a lockdown zealot to now being the resident mask fetishist.
I wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AstroturfingI wonder if you find that remarkable? What is it that you have in your psyche that predisposes you to this sort of thinking?
In the Spectator someone was writing from Spain.
The custom in that part of Spain is to wear a mask while walking around in the open air and then to take it off while going inside to a bar or restaurant. As far as they could see therefore it was serving no function whatsoever except as fashion accessory.
The custom in that part of Spain is to wear a mask while walking around in the open air and then to take it off while going inside to a bar or restaurant. As far as they could see therefore it was serving no function whatsoever except as fashion accessory.
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