The Irish border

[Eric Mc]

Rostfritt said:

I can imagine that many people even today would not be happy with Irish having freedom of movement and travel to the UK today. I think pointing this out instead of assuming that everyone is entirely fine with modern day Irish immigration into the UK is a valid point of discussion.

Even in the darkest days of the Anglo-Irish relationship, there has never been a restriction on travel between Ireland and the UK - due to the terms of the 1921 treaty.

That is not changing. This is about the only thing about Brexit that has been confirmed beyond doubt as it is nothing to do with the EU.

[Eric Mc]

Tuna said:

Well in the context of Ghibli's nonsense, I don't believe there is much of an issue with people crossing the border within Ireland? Most of it can be managed by using the usual tools - identity checks at point of access for work, public services and housing as I understand it, the same way we manage it on the mainland.

.

That's is why I doubt your "genius" status. You do know that of the border crossing available, only about three or four actually have the capability of having traditional or electronic check points installed. There are officially 208 border crossings (plus the potential for a few hundred more). It is a porous border and short of placing minefields and electric fences amongst the hedges, fields, lanes and boreens (Irish word for little road) - it will never be controllable.

[Sway]

Eric Mc said:

Tuna said:

Well in the context of Ghibli's nonsense, I don't believe there is much of an issue with people crossing the border within Ireland? Most of it can be managed by using the usual tools - identity checks at point of access for work, public services and housing as I understand it, the same way we manage it on the mainland.

.

That's is why I doubt your "genius" status. You do know that of the border crossing available, only about three or four actually have the capability of having traditional or electronic check points installed. There are officially 208 border crossings (plus the potential for a few hundred more). It is a porous border and short of placing minefields and electric fences amongst the hedges, fields, lanes and boreens (Irish word for little road) - it will never be controllable.

Which is why no one is aiming to.

Goods movements are far less free, and there is plenty of talk of low level goods movements being ignored completely as they are in many border zones.

People are controlled either through access to the British Isles in general, or via the right to work. There is no need for any form of human border controls within the island of Ireland.

[Eric Mc]

Sway said:

Which is why no one is aiming to.

Goods movements are far less free, and there is plenty of talk of low level goods movements being ignored completely as they are in many border zones.

People are controlled either through access to the British Isles in general, or via the right to work. There is no need for any form of human border controls within the island of Ireland.

I've asked this many times. How do you restrict the movement of EU citizens into the UK when they can cross the UK's only land border with no checks whatsoever?

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

[Tuna]

Eric Mc said:

That's is why I doubt your "genius" status. You do know that of the border crossing available, only about three or four actually have the capability of having traditional or electronic check points installed. There are officially 208 border crossings (plus the potential for a few hundred more). It is a porous border and short of placing minefields and electric fences amongst the hedges, fields, lanes and boreens (Irish word for little road) - it will never be controllable.

No, but there's no reason to absolutely require it to be so. Overall movement through Ireland can be managed at the ports, just as it already is, and movement within the country can be managed by identity requirements at point of access. That means that you can't meaningfully live or work 'over the border' without the relevant documentation, so the fact it can be crossed easily does not have to be an issue - if there is the will to make it so. The RoI and NI authorities have managed with a porous border despite the tensions, so it's really up to them if EU citizenship has to change matters.

Or do you think we should elevate EU citizenship up to the same level as a religious war?

I absolutely agree that goods are a different issue, and require changes to accommodate - it's just not as simple, and Sway and others have talked about possible technical solutions to that. As has been mentioned a number of times, a technical solution within Ireland is cheaper and easier to implement than the proposal May has come up with that requires we change customs processes and goods tracking across the whole of the UK.

[Sway]

Eric Mc said:

Sway said:

Which is why no one is aiming to.

Goods movements are far less free, and there is plenty of talk of low level goods movements being ignored completely as they are in many border zones.

People are controlled either through access to the British Isles in general, or via the right to work. There is no need for any form of human border controls within the island of Ireland.

I've asked this many times. How do you restrict the movement of EU citizens into the UK when they can cross the UK's only land border with no checks whatsoever?

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

You don't. No one has suggested it, no one is planning it, it's not going to happen.

With the transfer of information between RoI and NI, if there is a particularly unpleasant and undesired EU individual that we don't want in the UK, the best we're going to do is to have watch notices at the airports/ferry terminals from Ireland to mainland UK. You don't necessarily need passport controls to pick people up and deport them.

There's no ability or desire to restrict access to NI, as the downsides outweigh the risk.

[Dr Jekyll]

Eric Mc said:

I've asked this many times. How do you restrict the movement of EU citizens into the UK when they can cross the UK's only land border with no checks whatsoever?

We won't. Just as we don't now. Just as we didn't before we joined the EU. Why would we want to?

[Tuna]

Eric Mc said:

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?

[Eric Mc]

Tuna said:

Eric Mc said:

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?

I've never done so - ever.

Prior to 1993 there used to be Customs Checks - which were pretty random and only about goods - not people. They went with the advent of the single market. And of course, they never existed for ferry travel between NI and GB.

[Mrr T]

Tuna said:

Eric Mc said:

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?

According to the ferry web sites you need ID to travel. However, a utility bill is sufficient. Considering it's easy to create this type of ID there is effectively no controls.

[Rh14n]

Eric Mc said:

Tuna said:

Eric Mc said:

Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?

I've never done so - ever.

Prior to 1993 there used to be Customs Checks - which were pretty random and only about goods - not people. They went with the advent of the single market. And of course, they never existed for ferry travel between NI and GB.

Amazingly, no you don't have to provide any ID to travel between GB and the ROI (although you are advised to do so). The ferry companies will ask for a name, you can be as vague or false as you like and then you travel through and will be subject to random (or not so random) security checks. Holyhead Port is the second busiest Port in the UK and would become absolutely gridlocked if each passenger (around 2 million a year) and up to a thousand LGVs each day were required to be checked. It's not going to happen.

[irish boy]

Rh14n said:

Amazingly, no you don't have to provide any ID to travel between GB and the ROI (although you are advised to do so). The ferry companies will ask for a name, you can be as vague or false as you like and then you travel through and will be subject to random (or not so random) security checks. Holyhead Port is the second busiest Port in the UK and would become absolutely gridlocked if each passenger (around 2 million a year) and up to a thousand LGVs each day were required to be checked. It's not going to happen.

Same as the roads, the main Dublin newry motorway is constantly busy and a check would cause untold gridlock.

I cross the border very regularly, will do twice today alone. We would do 15-20% of our business in the south. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[psi310398]

mx5nut said:

Eric Mc said:

psi310398 said:

Eric Mc said:

There's two sides to every border - something the UK seems to have forgotten.

Well, the other side is the other side's business.

If only it was that simple.

It all sounds simple when you're campaigning for it.

Unfortunately two years later they're still campaigning instead of facing up to the reality of their win!

Actually, I'm not campaigning. I just think the UK should call Varadkar's bluff. If he wants to tank Ireland's economy, he's welcome to fill his boots, as far as I'm concerned. The whole island has a safety blanket funded by largely English taxpayers. Perhaps it is time to remove it and let the whole island face reality.

If I were in the mood for campaigning, it would be to cut NI loose and let the island of Ireland sort itself out, once and for all, rather than see the rest of the UK be held hostage to the politics of the province.

The GFA is nothing more than a cynical mechanism for extracting large amounts of money from predominantly English taxpayers in exchange for a given bunch of thugs not murdering another bunch of thugs and their supporting communities, and, worse from my POV, (predominantly English) servicemen.

So why not have a referendum there with a binary and final choice - (a) Brexit with the UK (and all that that entails, including joining the 21st Century on civil liberties etc) or (b) Remain with the EU, leave the UK and unify with the Republic, per the Republic's constitution? (Apart from anything else, it would be priceless to see Dublin's and the Commission's reaction.)

Even better, this approach would be entirely consistent with the notion of self-determination and the terms of the GFA.

[Eric Mc]

The whole argument is that the economies of the EU countries are prepared to commit suicide along with the UK.

The basis of that argument being the UK is so important they HAVE to bow to our terms (if the UK can actually agree to what these terms are supposed to be).

[Mrr T]

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

[Dr Jekyll]

Mrr T said:

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

[Eric Mc]

Dr Jekyll said:

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

I quite resent your depiction of the Irish. I think the mods should be a little circumspect about such derogatory language being used.

And, as I keep saying, the Irish are not the issue here. It's other EU citizens using the totally open and unchecked Irish border to access the UK.

(Notice how I managed not to try to insult other EU citizens without imbecilic stereotyping - it can be done if you try).

[psi310398]

Eric Mc said:

I quite resent your depiction of the Irish. I think the mods should be a little circumspect about such derogatory language being used.

And, as I keep saying, the Irish are not the issue here. It's other EU citizens using the totally open and unchecked Irish border to access the UK.

(Notice how I managed not to try to insult other EU citizens without imbecilic stereotyping - it can be done if you try).

If the Irish Government isn't joining Schengen and scrapping the CTA arrangements, what exactly is the issue?

Employment and housing checks will sweep EU citizens up if there is no other arrangement put in place, much the same as for the other visa-free entrants to the UK.

[Dr Jekyll]

Eric Mc said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

I quite resent your depiction of the Irish. I think the mods should be a little circumspect about such derogatory language being used.

And, as I keep saying, the Irish are not the issue here. It's other EU citizens using the totally open and unchecked Irish border to access the UK.

(Notice how I managed not to try to insult other EU citizens without imbecilic stereotyping - it can be done if you try).

Read again what I said. I was making the precise point that there is nothing dangerous or offensive coming across the border when it's open, no such thing as a radioactive man eating leprechaun, so no reason to close it.

Equally other EU citizens are already accessing the UK via the NI border without any problems.

[Eric Mc]

Dr Jekyll said:

Read again what I said. I was making the precise point that there is nothing dangerous or offensive coming across the border when it's open, no such thing as a radioactive man eating leprechaun, so no reason to close it.

Equally other EU citizens are already accessing the UK via the NI border without any problems.

It's the fact that you chose to depict the Irish in a certain way shows how your mind works. PH is becoming quite hateful at times - especially NP&E and especially when it comes to race and ethnicity.

Time to bow out I think from these poisonous discussions.