Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2
Discussion
rxe said:
Quite.
We built massive stores of weapons to stop Russian advances in Europe. Now we have the Ukranians doing it for us. We should give them everything in the arsenal. They should have 1000 Ukrainian pilots in the US training on F16s. There should be 10,000 Ukrainian fitters learning how to fix them. We either use the weapons to kill the Russians now, or we have to build another generation of weapons to kill them in 20 years time.
The US gets a lot of flak for foreign policy, but thank god there are there in this case. They have the resources and the will to take this one on.
Absolutely. It would be stupid to let them off the hook now. We built massive stores of weapons to stop Russian advances in Europe. Now we have the Ukranians doing it for us. We should give them everything in the arsenal. They should have 1000 Ukrainian pilots in the US training on F16s. There should be 10,000 Ukrainian fitters learning how to fix them. We either use the weapons to kill the Russians now, or we have to build another generation of weapons to kill them in 20 years time.
The US gets a lot of flak for foreign policy, but thank god there are there in this case. They have the resources and the will to take this one on.
Cobnapint said:
...Africa.
It's amazing how many people with Twitter accounts in Africa (and India for that matter) openly support Putin. Their reasoning behind their position is because the British and West in general are supplying weapons to Ukraine, and Britain and the West previously colonised their countries.
It really is that simple. They are willing to support mad Vlad slaughtering civilians because the west is against him.
I've noted them too, and I've always assumed they are Russian Bots.It's amazing how many people with Twitter accounts in Africa (and India for that matter) openly support Putin. Their reasoning behind their position is because the British and West in general are supplying weapons to Ukraine, and Britain and the West previously colonised their countries.
It really is that simple. They are willing to support mad Vlad slaughtering civilians because the west is against him.
BikeBikeBIke said:
...
The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy....
Until very recently Germany did and not just them but the rest of the EU too... Nordstream 2! I'm sure a lot of them still do... Scholtz' mate Schroder for a start. It wasn't like they weren't fvcking warned, repeatedly. The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy....
vonuber said:
By the way, the telegraph article rips directly from a German newspaper which is basically high on hyperbole, low on fact and completely anti the sitting government. There was a really good explainer on Reddit a few days ago which had the original source and a lot of germans commenting on it (who also acknowledge the clusterf
k of German response and are very angry about it).
Have you a link for that reddit page? Reddit's search function seems as cooperative as the search here.k of German response and are very angry about it).BikeBikeBIke said:
Yeah, I'm not buying the narrative that Germany and France are bad guys here.
The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy. It also assumes Germany and France are negotiating away Ukranian land. I think that's nonsense. If Russia's fooled into a starting position of X the end position is X - loads. If G + F get Putin to open the door a crack Zelensky may be able to bash it open with a way better deal.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but it's too early to say.
If I was looking for a European Quisling it would be Hungary.
German govt refusing to retain/restart nuclear power is a political decision paid for with ukrainian blood; strong Quisling vibes.The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy. It also assumes Germany and France are negotiating away Ukranian land. I think that's nonsense. If Russia's fooled into a starting position of X the end position is X - loads. If G + F get Putin to open the door a crack Zelensky may be able to bash it open with a way better deal.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but it's too early to say.
If I was looking for a European Quisling it would be Hungary.
FiF said:
fblm said:
FiF said:
Thing is we're in two tribes here, there's the majority group that want to supply support to Ukraine and are doing so.
And then there's the group that just aren't, yes you Germany in particular, absolutely shameful. I really hope the world remembers and punishes you commercially.
...
They won't. Ursula will give Ukraine billions of EU money to rebuild and Germany will pick up all the contracts. Watch this space.And then there's the group that just aren't, yes you Germany in particular, absolutely shameful. I really hope the world remembers and punishes you commercially.
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_...
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 29th May 22:50
vonuber said:
You do know that Germany doesn't actually really have anything to give, thanks to all the cutbacks?
What it actually has done is for example give stuff to Poland so Poland can send stuff Ukraine can actually use. Germany has also for example sent artillery but it requires six weeks training. They've also sent Matador AT weapons.
By the way, the telegraph article rips directly from a German newspaper which is basically high on hyperbole, low on fact and completely anti the sitting government. There was a really good explainer on Reddit a few days ago which had the original source and a lot of germans commenting on it (who also acknowledge the clusterfk of German response and are very angry about it).
However - yet again the singling out of Germany is very.. odd, even if i personally think Scholz and his party are up to their arses in backhanders, and hopefully there are some decent investigative journalists hot on it.
You seem to be ignoring that it's Poland that's raising the accusations against Germany of failing to meet its promises.What it actually has done is for example give stuff to Poland so Poland can send stuff Ukraine can actually use. Germany has also for example sent artillery but it requires six weeks training. They've also sent Matador AT weapons.
By the way, the telegraph article rips directly from a German newspaper which is basically high on hyperbole, low on fact and completely anti the sitting government. There was a really good explainer on Reddit a few days ago which had the original source and a lot of germans commenting on it (who also acknowledge the clusterf
k of German response and are very angry about it).However - yet again the singling out of Germany is very.. odd, even if i personally think Scholz and his party are up to their arses in backhanders, and hopefully there are some decent investigative journalists hot on it.
Agree with another poster's comments that the real collaborator is Hungary. Also France hasn't covered themselves in glory either, don't forget Macron ranting like a petulant child about Boris visiting Kyiv, yet despite an invite from Zelensky refuses to go unless there is a point to do so.
Regardless the image of the EU's two leading nations is now tainted and people should not forget. Especially if there is nothing to send just why that is perhaps.
Whilst the West has been ignoring Africa, Russia has been pumping in arms to the dictators and lots of propaganda to the masses, so they now believe the same rubbish coming from the Russian state media instead of western mainstream media. That's why they blame the West for the war, the grain crisis, and everything is our fault. Unless we can physically wrestle the grain out of the Russians' hands and deliver it to the African nations ourselves, their opinion will not change one iota. Any African starving to death as a result of the grain being being held to ransom by Russia will be laid at our door - purely because they don't have access to any better information to say or prove otherwise and to drown out the noise. The fake accounts are all part of the Russian propaganda tactics and will be highly influential. If you haven't already done so, watch Vlad Vexler's excellent video explaining Russian propaganda tactics.
I also agree that if the Russian armed forces are pulverised into oblivion, then there's nobody left to threaten our way of life while we rebuild our defences. Therefore, we shouldn't hold back from supplying our best available kit to Ukraine even if it means we have less on the shelf for a little while. We don't need to totally empty everything out, but we should give even higher spec kit in even greater quantities even quicker.
In Europe, nobody expected anything better from Hungary so their response wasn't that surprising. They also have little financial or political clout. They're irrelevant. Italy or Spain haven't done huge amounts either, but they neither have the financial means of France and Germany, nor the physical proximity to the source of trouble as Poland et al. More to the point, they're not up their necks in dirty Russian money, blocking supply of arms, blocking reduction on dependence on Russian oil and gas, or trying to give away Ukrainian land for a "negotiated peace" agreement with the aggressor. That's why France and Germany are getting so much stick.
I also agree that if the Russian armed forces are pulverised into oblivion, then there's nobody left to threaten our way of life while we rebuild our defences. Therefore, we shouldn't hold back from supplying our best available kit to Ukraine even if it means we have less on the shelf for a little while. We don't need to totally empty everything out, but we should give even higher spec kit in even greater quantities even quicker.
In Europe, nobody expected anything better from Hungary so their response wasn't that surprising. They also have little financial or political clout. They're irrelevant. Italy or Spain haven't done huge amounts either, but they neither have the financial means of France and Germany, nor the physical proximity to the source of trouble as Poland et al. More to the point, they're not up their necks in dirty Russian money, blocking supply of arms, blocking reduction on dependence on Russian oil and gas, or trying to give away Ukrainian land for a "negotiated peace" agreement with the aggressor. That's why France and Germany are getting so much stick.
This is how it sits tonight. What will be interesting next week is how the battle of Kherson plays out, the Russians only have 5 battalions in the Meltipol and Kherson region where the ye olde T-62s are stationed. Everything is deep into the east of Ukraine so a move West would take men and equipment away from the Donbas.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Yeah, I'm not buying the narrative that Germany and France are bad guys here.
The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy. It also assumes Germany and France are negotiating away Ukranian land. I think that's nonsense. If Russia's fooled into a starting position of X the end position is X - loads. If G + F get Putin to open the door a crack Zelensky may be able to bash it open with a way better deal.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but it's too early to say.
If I was looking for a European Quisling it would be Hungary.
Germany wants whatever is commercially best for Germany. If they could run Germany on blood harvested from kittens, they'd be out buying young female cats right now. If Russian energy is cheap and easy, Germany will buy it. They want this to end ASAP, they really don't care who wins, they just want the gas and oil to flow. The narrative assumes Germany *want* to remain addicted to Russian energy. It also assumes Germany and France are negotiating away Ukranian land. I think that's nonsense. If Russia's fooled into a starting position of X the end position is X - loads. If G + F get Putin to open the door a crack Zelensky may be able to bash it open with a way better deal.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but it's too early to say.
If I was looking for a European Quisling it would be Hungary.
The ideal scenario for Germany is for Zelensky to say "yeah, f
k it, you can have Donbas, it's over", sanctions to go away and the world to go back to January 2022. Thankfully the Ukranians have more of a spine than that, and they have sufficient support in the rest of the world.We all knew Hungary would be a
holes, that was expected. The German behaviour is shocking. Everyone has been painting the Germans as the perfect cousin for the last few decades, why can’t we be more like them ?
All that industry, profit etc etc, always getting it right, we are so dumb etc etc.
Funny how things turn on a sixpence isn’t it ? They look a bit weasily and stupid now.
All that industry, profit etc etc, always getting it right, we are so dumb etc etc.
Funny how things turn on a sixpence isn’t it ? They look a bit weasily and stupid now.
vonuber said:
You do know that Germany doesn't actually really have anything to give, thanks to all the cutbacks?
What it actually has done is for example give stuff to Poland so Poland can send stuff Ukraine can actually use. Germany has also for example sent artillery but it requires six weeks training. They've also sent Matador AT weapons.
By the way, the telegraph article rips directly from a German newspaper which is basically high on hyperbole, low on fact and completely anti the sitting government. There was a really good explainer on Reddit a few days ago which had the original source and a lot of germans commenting on it (who also acknowledge the clusterfk of German response and are very angry about it).
However - yet again the singling out of Germany is very.. odd, even if i personally think Scholz and his party are up to their arses in backhanders, and hopefully there are some decent investigative journalists hot on it.
Rheinmetall and other German defence giants could arm Ukraine twice over if they got the green light. What it actually has done is for example give stuff to Poland so Poland can send stuff Ukraine can actually use. Germany has also for example sent artillery but it requires six weeks training. They've also sent Matador AT weapons.
By the way, the telegraph article rips directly from a German newspaper which is basically high on hyperbole, low on fact and completely anti the sitting government. There was a really good explainer on Reddit a few days ago which had the original source and a lot of germans commenting on it (who also acknowledge the clusterf
k of German response and are very angry about it).However - yet again the singling out of Germany is very.. odd, even if i personally think Scholz and his party are up to their arses in backhanders, and hopefully there are some decent investigative journalists hot on it.
rxe said:
Germany wants whatever is commercially best for Germany. If they could run Germany on blood harvested from kittens, they'd be out buying young female cats right now. If Russian energy is cheap and easy, Germany will buy it. They want this to end ASAP, they really don't care who wins, they just want the gas and oil to flow.
The ideal scenario for Germany is for Zelensky to say "yeah, fk it, you can have Donbas, it's over", sanctions to go away and the world to go back to January 2022. Thankfully the Ukranians have more of a spine than that, and they have sufficient support in the rest of the world.
We all knew Hungary would be aholes, that was expected. The German behaviour is shocking.
YupThe ideal scenario for Germany is for Zelensky to say "yeah, f
k it, you can have Donbas, it's over", sanctions to go away and the world to go back to January 2022. Thankfully the Ukranians have more of a spine than that, and they have sufficient support in the rest of the world.We all knew Hungary would be a
holes, that was expected. The German behaviour is shocking. Cobnapint said:
...Africa.
It's amazing how many people with Twitter accounts in Africa (and India for that matter) openly support Putin. Their reasoning behind their position is because the British and West in general are supplying weapons to Ukraine, and Britain and the West previously colonised their countries.
It really is that simple. They are willing to support mad Vlad slaughtering civilians because the west is against him.
Its easy to forget how our colonial history is "in the past" and almost irrelevant to today's Western worldview. To the rising nationalists in India, China and African nations it is very real, and they do not let their populations forget it. Chinese students grow up learning about western disrespect and unequal treaties the way we teach our kids about Blitz Spirit and liberating Europe. It's amazing how many people with Twitter accounts in Africa (and India for that matter) openly support Putin. Their reasoning behind their position is because the British and West in general are supplying weapons to Ukraine, and Britain and the West previously colonised their countries.
It really is that simple. They are willing to support mad Vlad slaughtering civilians because the west is against him.
As these nations get more powerful they need an explanation for why they were not powerful before - Western oppression and malfeasance is the easy message.
TTmonkey said:
Every single weapon system needed should now be delivered into Ukraine.
The ongoing attrition of Russian military resources, and the long term sanctions, could see this make Russia an expired force everywhere.
Every NLAW we have should go. Every javelin. There’s no other target on the horizon that we’d need an ATGM reserve for is there? Use them all. Buy more. Send them too.
They also need to be able to hit deeper into the supply chain to stall the Russians now. They need long range guided weapons. They need to hit more than 50 miles into the rear.
The Ukrainians need the ability to take the war away Tom the front line.
Yes Morty! About fThe ongoing attrition of Russian military resources, and the long term sanctions, could see this make Russia an expired force everywhere.
Every NLAW we have should go. Every javelin. There’s no other target on the horizon that we’d need an ATGM reserve for is there? Use them all. Buy more. Send them too.
They also need to be able to hit deeper into the supply chain to stall the Russians now. They need long range guided weapons. They need to hit more than 50 miles into the rear.
The Ukrainians need the ability to take the war away Tom the front line.
king time(Layer Cake)
Edited by faa77 on Monday 30th May 04:18
fblm said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I've noted them too, and I've always assumed they are Russian Bots.
Good friend of mine is from Botswana and until recently did business across the whole of southern Africa... recons they are all fake, that the language is completely and comically wrong.
) and if they were I don't think Russia's London embassy Twitter page would they their first choice to talk about it.Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Monday 30th May 05:46
sisu said:
This is how it sits tonight. What will be interesting next week is how the battle of Kherson plays out, the Russians only have 5 battalions in the Meltipol and Kherson region where the ye olde T-62s are stationed. Everything is deep into the east of Ukraine so a move West would take men and equipment away from the Donbas.
Yeah, there's a lot happening on the ground now. Seems that Russia's focus on the North might have a cost in the South. Personally, I hope this is the beginning of and offensive from Ukraine that rolls Russia back.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff