Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 4)

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

I do find it interesting that whenever Boris is asked about accepting any responsibility for what has happened the message is very much "now is not the time".

But apparently it is the time for him to lay some blame at the door of care homes.

fk your tribal loyalty is that really the "brave" leadership people voted for?

Absolutely right. It’s the right time to blame others but not the right time to actually face scrutiny himself.

When’s it going to be time for the Russian interference report?

[don'tbesilly]

Sway said:

bhstewie said:

JagLover said:

How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?

Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.

I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.

The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".

Which leads to a pretty simple question.

Which procedures?

If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.

If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.

Isolation.

It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.

Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...

I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.

Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.

I've got two friends with a parent in a care home, both homes have had no infections, and no deaths, both homes started isolating all their residents from the get-go, and that included the staff. (Yes an anecdote I know)

Interestingly there was a piece on the Beeb earlier on today where the staff had been living in from the beginning, I think there were approx 8-10 staff members who had made unbelievable personal sacrifices to safeguard their residents, but I can't recall whether the home had had any infections or deaths, I might have missed any mention of that info.

[Sway]

Mrr T said:

Sway said:

Isolation.

It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.

Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...

I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.

Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.

I see you have now become the resident expert on care home. No wonder all these major consulting firm wanted to recruit you.

In the real world I spoke to 3 people who worked in care homes all before CV19. Most resident have some level of dementia they simple will not remain in their rooms and locking them in causes distress.

Staff levels mean they are dependant on most residents eating in the dinning room. There are simply not enough staff to deliver food and clear to all the residents in their rooms.

The idea care where in a position to deal with the virus is ludicrous. Pushing elderly patients with no testing out of hospital into care home was a major error.

Oh MrrT, do show us all on the teddy bear where the nasty Sway hurt you...

There's plenty of information out there, including comparable approaches in other nations.

There are also very simple comparators to (for example) how norovirus is managed on cruise ships, or contagious diseases are managed in animal rescues.

I am interested in your clearly extensive knowledge of care home feeding arrangements, and the recognition that distress is worse than life.

[mx5nut]

bhstewie said:

Well his comments on care homes have gone down very well.

Johnson said:

One of the things the crisis has shown is we need to think about how we organise our social care package better and how we make sure we look after people better who are in social care.

Johnson said:

We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time.

Remember though he takes full responsibility for everything his government has been doing in tackling coronavirus and is very proud of their record.

Nothing is ever Johnson's fault. He wanted all of the power and glory of winning the election but forgot about the responsibility that went with it.


The Narcissist's Prayer
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
You deserved it.

[Sway]

don'tbesilly said:

Sway said:

bhstewie said:

JagLover said:

How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?

Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.

I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.

The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".

Which leads to a pretty simple question.

Which procedures?

If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.

If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.

Isolation.

It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.

Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...

I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.

Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.

I've got two friends with a parent in a care home, both homes have had no infections, and no deaths, both homes started isolating all their residents from the get-go, and that included the staff. (Yes an anecdote I know)

Interestingly there was a piece on the Beeb earlier on today where the staff had been living in from the beginning, I think there were approx 8-10 staff members who had made unbelievable personal sacrifices to safeguard their residents, but I can't recall whether the home had had any infections or deaths, I might have missed any mention of that info.

That logically feels like the right approach, self determined - with seemingly a superb result.

The efforts by the staff doing things like that are incredible, as are those in 'normal' healthcare who did similar in order to protect thier families/local communities as they were working in high exposure environments.

[Blue62]

don'tbesilly said:

I've got two friends with a parent in a care home, both homes have had no infections, and no deaths, both homes started isolating all their residents from the get-go, and that included the staff. (Yes an anecdote I know)

Interestingly there was a piece on the Beeb earlier on today where the staff had been living in from the beginning, I think there were approx 8-10 staff members who had made unbelievable personal sacrifices to safeguard their residents, but I can't recall whether the home had had any infections or deaths, I might have missed any mention of that info.

I know two care home business owners, one death between them, but they don't use agency staff and managed (at considerable expense) to get PPE, they know of care home businesses that have lost every single resident, been totally wiped out. There were a series of mistakes with care homes, not just in the UK and it seems that with better preparation and decision making lives could've been saved.

When we were told that the government had put a protective ring around care homes in March, it was nothing of the sort, given what we now know it was either a blatant lie or a catastrophic failure. Johnson's latest comments are indefensible given the context, how otherwise intelligent people don't see through this man is a mystery to me, as it is with those who support Trump, Putin et al, it seriously baffles me.

[bitchstewie]

El stovey said:

bhstewie said:

I do find it interesting that whenever Boris is asked about accepting any responsibility for what has happened the message is very much "now is not the time".

But apparently it is the time for him to lay some blame at the door of care homes.

fk your tribal loyalty is that really the "brave" leadership people voted for?

Absolutely right. It’s the right time to blame others but not the right time to actually face scrutiny himself.

Clapping for carers one week and attacking them the next.

Great leadership.

[IforB]

JagLover said:

Sway said:

The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.

Yes and hopefully a silver lining will be the emergence of far better pandemic planning and the bodies put in place that can deliver it effectively.

We likely wont get that though if those who wish to politicise this crisis get their way. There are no lessons to be learned apparently all that matters is getting rid of Boris.

There are always lessons to be learned from any situation. Nothing is ever 100% perfect and anyone who is expecting any Government response to this crisis to not have mistakes in it, is an idiot.

However, This Government have made some spectacularly bad decisions and have been behind the curve all the way through.

Pulling apart poor Governmental decision making is absolutely part of the lessons learned process. All of us have to do our own simplified version of it too. In the future, when a ballot paper is in front of you, have a look at those on it and decide how they may respond in a similar crisis.

If they appear to be populist blowhards who talk a good game, but fall apart like a cheap suit at the first sign of trouble, then maybe, don't put a cross next to that person or party.

When you elect idiots, it is unreasonable to expect them not to be idiots.So it is contingent on all of us to make sure we do our best in the future to elect people who aren't useless.

From a lessons learned perspective, that is the big one I take away from it.

[Garvin]

don'tbesilly said:

Sway said:

bhstewie said:

JagLover said:

How many care homes and have they had lower excess deaths as a result?

Given we have had 30,000 excess deaths in carehomes I think it is fair to say that some could have been prevented through different procedures they "could" have taken?, dont you?.

I sometimes wonder what the point of having an enquiry into the Coronavirus response is going to be. It apparently shouldn't be looking at the role of PHE, or preparedness in general, of the split in responsibilities between the NHS and the, mostly, private care homes. All it needs to do apparently is just say its all Boris's fault and then we can continue as we are until the next virus comes along.

The Prime Minister said "We discovered too many care homes didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we’re learning lessons the whole time".

Which leads to a pretty simple question.

Which procedures?

If the most senior politician in the country is going to make such a statement I'd hope he has the detail to back it up.

If he does I'll hold my hands up that I'm wrong and it's the fault of the care homes.

Isolation.

It's very clear from the level of transmission and deaths arising from care homes that isolation of the over 70s did not happen as intended.

Unless the residents are sharing bedrooms, then isolation was entirely possible - it's even possible at the local cat and rabbit rescue...

I'll also note, we're not alone in not isolating care home residents sufficiently.

Lastly - at no point am I criticising those who did what they felt was their absolute best (including becoming resident at the care home themselves). The nature of lessons learnt is to find the flaws without blame - just as Johnson yesterday made it very clear he wasn't blaming, it is the press and some others that have taken it as blaming.

I've got two friends with a parent in a care home, both homes have had no infections, and no deaths, both homes started isolating all their residents from the get-go, and that included the staff. (Yes an anecdote I know)

Interestingly there was a piece on the Beeb earlier on today where the staff had been living in from the beginning, I think there were approx 8-10 staff members who had made unbelievable personal sacrifices to safeguard their residents, but I can't recall whether the home had had any infections or deaths, I might have missed any mention of that info.

The MIL is in a facility that encompasses independent living, 'semi-care' and 'full care' for its residents. Not a single case of CV. They took measures early on including stopping all visits. They were criticised for this but stuck to their guns in the face of hostility. When we spoke to them about the processes and procedures they had put in place it became clear that the management had taken responsibility and were moving quickly and not relying on the government to tell them what to do. A thoroughly professionally run place.

[gooner1]

IforB said:

There are always lessons to be learned from any situation. Nothing is ever 100% perfect and anyone who is expecting any Government response to this crisis to not have mistakes in it, is an idiot.

However, This Government have made some spectacularly bad decisions and have been behind the curve all the way through.

Pulling apart poor Governmental decision making is absolutely part of the lessons learned process. All of us have to do our own simplified version of it too. In the future, when a ballot paper is in front of you, have a look at those on it and decide how they may respond in a similar crisis.

If they appear to be populist blowhards who talk a good game, but fall apart like a cheap suit at the first sign of trouble, then maybe, don't put a cross next to that person or party.





When you elect idiots, it is unreasonable to expect them not to be idiots.So it is contingent on all of us to make sure we do our best in the future to elect people who aren't useless.





From a lessons learned perspective, that is the big one I take away from it.

I take it you won’t be exercising your right to vote at the next GE.

[Sway]

Blue62 said:

don'tbesilly said:

I've got two friends with a parent in a care home, both homes have had no infections, and no deaths, both homes started isolating all their residents from the get-go, and that included the staff. (Yes an anecdote I know)

Interestingly there was a piece on the Beeb earlier on today where the staff had been living in from the beginning, I think there were approx 8-10 staff members who had made unbelievable personal sacrifices to safeguard their residents, but I can't recall whether the home had had any infections or deaths, I might have missed any mention of that info.

I know two care home business owners, one death between them, but they don't use agency staff and managed (at considerable expense) to get PPE, they know of care home businesses that have lost every single resident, been totally wiped out. There were a series of mistakes with care homes, not just in the UK and it seems that with better preparation and decision making lives could've been saved.

When we were told that the government had put a protective ring around care homes in March, it was nothing of the sort, given what we now know it was either a blatant lie or a catastrophic failure. Johnson's latest comments are indefensible given the context, how otherwise intelligent people don't see through this man is a mystery to me, as it is with those who support Trump, Putin et al, it seriously baffles me.

Agreed the "ring" was anything but.

However, Johnson's proposals yesterday were all about improvements at government not care home level.

[gooner1]

Sway said:

Agreed the "ring" was anything but.

However, Johnson's proposals yesterday were all about improvements at government not care home level.

That is commonly known, but the pitchfork mob hear what they want to hear.

[bitchstewie]

Blue62 said:

When we were told that the government had put a protective ring around care homes in March, it was nothing of the sort, given what we now know it was either a blatant lie or a catastrophic failure. Johnson's latest comments are indefensible given the context, how otherwise intelligent people don't see through this man is a mystery to me, as it is with those who support Trump, Putin et al, it seriously baffles me.

Birds of a feather.

Team.

Take your pick.

[anonymous-user]

gooner1 said:

Sway said:

Agreed the "ring" was anything but.

However, Johnson's proposals yesterday were all about improvements at government not care home level.

That is commonly known, but the pitchfork mob hear what they want to hear.

Yes we all know this but in that statement he said

"We discovered too many care homes didn't really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we're learning lessons the whole time.“

It’s quite clearly early enough for him to blame care homes for not apparently following procedures but too early for him to be scrutinised for anything.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-boris-johns...

Imagine you have a job and an accident happens in your workplace and your boss on live tv says

“We discovered gooner didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that he could have but we’re learning lessons all the time”

Would you feel that you were being blamed in any way?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th July 10:25

[Zirconia]

Bojo yesterday was spinning the line they have played all the way through, deflection from what they did. Nothing more. It is not the first time and it will not be the last. I expect more tomorrow.

[Sway]

El stovey said:

gooner1 said:

Sway said:

Agreed the "ring" was anything but.

However, Johnson's proposals yesterday were all about improvements at government not care home level.

That is commonly known, but the pitchfork mob hear what they want to hear.

Yes we all know this but in that statement he said

"We discovered too many care homes didn't really follow the procedures in the way that they could have but we're learning lessons the whole time.“

It’s quite clearly early enough for him to blame care homes for not apparently following procedures but too early for him to be scrutinised for anything.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-boris-johns...

Imagine you have a job and an accident happens in your workplace and your boss on live tv says

“We discovered gooner didn’t really follow the procedures in the way that he could have but we’re learning lessons all the time”

Would you feel that you were being blamed in any way?

Edited by El stovey on Tuesday 7th July 10:25

He didn't say "because they couldn't be fked, the idiots".

He then went on to say they needed more funding (and announced I believe £600M) and also that government needed to provide more and better support otherwise.

That doesn't sound like blame to me, that sounds like recognition of something that could be done better in future.

[Blue62]

gooner1 said:

That is commonly known, but the pitchfork mob hear what they want to hear.

That’s an odd conclusion to draw, based on what Johnson actually said. The narrative is that if mistakes were made it’s because people didn’t follow our advice, but given what is emerging about the handling of the crisis, how can that be an acceptable statement from the man in charge?

I don’t wield a pitchfork, just try to understand what’s going on around me and judge when I’m being taken for a mug.

[markyb_lcy]

It’s going to be funny watching the usual Boris boot-licker, self-contortionists defend these comments from Boris blaming care homes that the govt are already trying to row back on.

[bitchstewie]

markyb_lcy said:

It’s going to be funny watching the usual Boris boot-licker, self-contortionists defend these comments from Boris blaming care homes that the govt are already trying to row back on.

What do you mean going to be just read the last page.

Risible.

[markyb_lcy]

bhstewie said:

markyb_lcy said:

It’s going to be funny watching the usual Boris boot-licker, self-contortionists defend these comments from Boris blaming care homes that the govt are already trying to row back on.

What do you mean going to be just read the last page.

Risible.

Indeed, it’s already begun, but it generally gets even funnier when they’re challenged and they start doubling down, using ad-hom attacks and distorting logic and reasoning.

Has Tuna done his usual “art of defending without defending” act yet? That will be one to get the popcorn out for.