Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 7)
Discussion
Tuna said:
PR, and coalition governments deliver the status quo - not change. That suits some people very well.
Quite, as I have posted I believe that people want strong governance. I only suggested PR as a desirable system to avoid the idiocracy of voting for least worst option. Roger is tricky to debate with, he fades in and out of of theory and practice (plus he's nuanced). Obviously some people think democracy and procrastination is more important than doing stuff, and they will loose their s
t if people suggest that action is better than inaction. I disagree, but that's opinion.Why these people trust MPs and parliamentary democracy is lost on me. MPs seem to arrogantly think they are elected because the electorate values their opinions. I believe the electorate really doesn't. It wants the MPs to do what they voted for, and latitude ONLY exists for tricky stuff. But that's my view, what do I know....
stongle said:
Quite, as I have posted I believe that people want strong governance. I only suggested PR as a desirable system to avoid the idiocracy of voting for least worst option. Roger is tricky to debate with, he fades in and out of of theory and practice (plus he's nuanced).
Obviously some people think democracy and procrastination is more important than doing stuff, and they will loose their st if people suggest that action is better than inaction. I disagree, but that's opinion.
Why these people trust MPs and parliamentary democracy is lost on me. MPs seem to arrogantly think they are elected because the electorate values their opinions. I believe the electorate really doesn't. It wants the MPs to do what they voted for, and latitude ONLY exists for tricky stuff. But that's my view, what do I know....
I’m not that tricky. At least not deliberately.Obviously some people think democracy and procrastination is more important than doing stuff, and they will loose their s
t if people suggest that action is better than inaction. I disagree, but that's opinion.Why these people trust MPs and parliamentary democracy is lost on me. MPs seem to arrogantly think they are elected because the electorate values their opinions. I believe the electorate really doesn't. It wants the MPs to do what they voted for, and latitude ONLY exists for tricky stuff. But that's my view, what do I know....
I’ll nail my colours to the wall and say I’m a strong advocate of PR. I know the downsides but if you believe in representative democracy rather than winner takes all its a no brainier.
Problem is the narrow margins it will create on the final vote count and you get MPs with no desire to rock any boat, Back to my early comment on why it’s sometimes better for politicians to provide oversight rather than being the ones in charge.
768 said:
The obvious problem with PR is that it'll be harder to get a majority. Possibly preferable a lot of the time, could be a disaster for something like covid.
I'm not sure it's the system and not just, for example, pay.
Plenty of countries with PR did better than the UK at handling COVID. I'm not sure it's the system and not just, for example, pay.
You still have an executive it's composition is just a bit different.
Also finding a majority for something can actually be easier as you don't have a single party capable of blocking a piece of legislation.
Also you don't have to write a manifesto that appeals to everyone not do we have to engage in the fiction that everything in the governing parties manifesto has popular legitimacy.
roger.mellie said:
Problem is the narrow margins it will create on the final vote count and you get MPs with no desire to rock any boat, Back to my early comment on why it’s sometimes better for politicians to provide oversight rather than being the ones in charge.
That assumes that there is a single 'correct' course of action, and all that has to be done is to implement it.Tuna said:
I very much doubt Johnson will deliver some magical transformation. Significant elements of his own party are not in favour of the sort of restructuring that is being suggested. Even with full support, there is so much that is deeply ingrained, structurally embedded in how the country works.
Even more so, having made such a lofty goal, every single time he fails to deliver cake and unicorns will be measured against "that's not levelling up"...
So it's an impossible goal, that will not be delivered. But the thing that Brexit revealed was that our political classes have so completely accepted that this must be the case, that they actively decry anyone trying to change things. Better still, people who object to Johson will cheer every shorftall and declare the job a failure.
Against that, it seems to me to be a miserable outlook to deny that even small changes, even just being willing to talk about the problem, even just acknowledging there is a problem offers some benefit. As the phrase goes "perfection is the enemy of progress", and the usual virtue signalling perfectionists would rather see no progress than accept that "levelling up" might be a legitimate aim.
Oh look just like on the Brexit thread it's all someone else's fault if he doesn't do the stuff he said he'd do.Even more so, having made such a lofty goal, every single time he fails to deliver cake and unicorns will be measured against "that's not levelling up"...
So it's an impossible goal, that will not be delivered. But the thing that Brexit revealed was that our political classes have so completely accepted that this must be the case, that they actively decry anyone trying to change things. Better still, people who object to Johson will cheer every shorftall and declare the job a failure.
Against that, it seems to me to be a miserable outlook to deny that even small changes, even just being willing to talk about the problem, even just acknowledging there is a problem offers some benefit. As the phrase goes "perfection is the enemy of progress", and the usual virtue signalling perfectionists would rather see no progress than accept that "levelling up" might be a legitimate aim.
The man has an 80 seat majority as we're frequently reminded.
We saw Johnson's attempts at "levelling up" this week when he found £50 per child and Collins resigned.
Actions speak louder than words.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Oh look just like on the Brexit thread it's all someone else's fault if he doesn't do the stuff he said he'd do.
The man has an 80 seat majority as we're frequently reminded.
We saw Johnson's attempts at "levelling up" this week when he found £50 per child and Collins resigned.
Actions speak louder than words.
The man has an 80 seat majority as we're frequently reminded.
We saw Johnson's attempts at "levelling up" this week when he found £50 per child and Collins resigned.
Actions speak louder than words.
Exactly
Saying Boris won’t actually deliver his levelling up and if he fails it’s not actually his fault.
Astonishing.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: We saw Johnson's attempts at "levelling up" this week when he found £50 per child and Collins resigned.
Actions speak louder than words.
Given that *nationwide* education provision is nothing to do with "levelling up", it comes as no surprise that you conflate the two.Actions speak louder than words.
Just think of the children, eh Stewie?
Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: We saw Johnson's attempts at "levelling up" this week when he found £50 per child and Collins resigned.
Actions speak louder than words.
Given that *nationwide* education provision is nothing to do with "levelling up", it comes as no surprise that you conflate the two.Actions speak louder than words.
Just think of the children, eh Stewie?
Johnson had an opportunity to show how the Government values some of those who have been impacted the most by the pandemic.
The choice he made was to ignore his own advisor and accept his resignation whilst finding 10% of the amount recommended which is probably still much less than is needed.
As I posted yesterday this is what he said in his leadership campaign.
"It should be our fundamental moral purpose as a government to bridge not just the wealth gap, not just the productivity gap, but the opportunity gap between one part of the UK and another."
He had an opportunity to start to bridge that gap and made a choice not to do so.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: He had an opportunity to start to bridge that gap and made a choice not to do so.
So you're arguing he should divert money away from the actual "levelling up" agenda, to something that isn't "levelling up" on the grounds that he's not "levelling up" the way you think he should? Maybe you should just demand Sunak phones you before spending any money?El stovey said:
You’re quite literally making up excuse as to why he isn’t going to deliver it and none of them are his doing.
Do you even read your own seal clapping.
No I'm not. I'm saying he's massively overreaching and will fail. That is a criticism.Do you even read your own seal clapping.
I'm also saying that those who want to see him fail will misrepresent the "levelling up" agenda, and do all that they can to discredit it.
And here you are...
Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: He had an opportunity to start to bridge that gap and made a choice not to do so.
So you're arguing he should divert money away from the actual "levelling up" agenda, to something that isn't "levelling up" on the grounds that he's not "levelling up" the way you think he should? Maybe you should just demand Sunak phones you before spending any money?Levelling up education standards across the country
I'm simply suggesting he should do what the bloke he hired to tell him what to do told him to do.
stongle said:
roger.mellie said:
What’s the alternative analysis? E.g I don’t think he was trying to undermine the Catholic Church, he accepted the Catholic Church undermining its own values to accommodate him. I’ll not shed a tear on that but consider it typical of the way others tie themselves in constitutional knots to accommodate someone who doesn’t give a.
Expecting to stand over a previous statement is a slightly different matter. He’s under no pressure to do so. Queue flappy seal pic. If Boris was held to his own stated opinions he’d be long gone. Thing is he’s not. Why? I can think of several answers, but assholes who vote for him because they feared a labour alternative whilst knowing he’s st deserve a special place in hell 
.
Tad harsh.....Expecting to stand over a previous statement is a slightly different matter. He’s under no pressure to do so. Queue flappy seal pic. If Boris was held to his own stated opinions he’d be long gone. Thing is he’s not. Why? I can think of several answers, but assholes who vote for him because they feared a labour alternative whilst knowing he’s s
t deserve a special place in hell .The UK system offered two polar choices. PR might have stopped that, but we don't have it; so?
The choice for voters was a "known economy" which recognised aspiration (or made platitudes towards it); or something quite the opposite. The hyperbole would say Venezuela, but potential leaders of G7 States can't start banging on about capital flight restrictions and shareholder appropriation - even IF they were unlikely to do it. For some reason, the leadership of the Labour Party lost its mind and started talking up policies that only drunk students think are good ideas. They went off the reservation.
I still come back to my view (as stated here), most secretly want yo be governed and delegate difficult decisions to govt. The post Brexit car crash in Parliament possibly drive people towards a strong govt offering (or one with a feasible plan).
In theory, least worst option is a daft voting reason; but parliamentarians were doing a good job of f
king the country.Someone said "talk is cheap", and for ALL politicians it is. What Boris offered with "level up", was 1) f
king expensive 2) broader than roads and digital infrastructure. The thing is the massive majority and switch to "blue" is a bit if a paradigm shift. They need to be listening to the electorate. There is a pattern with Brexit, Trump and Boris's 2019 win. And its not because electorates are stupid. I know that a lot of posters doubt that Boris can pull off Level Up, but he's got to confront the nuts on the right and the Murdoch's etc. It won't just be about the 3-500bn needed, but a dialogue about universal job guarantee, MMT, shareholder power (same as what's going on in the EU), education etc. Education is a big one. They have to unf
k the mess that Blair made in the 90s with pushing way too many into Uni. It's delivered the mother of unintended consequence. You have psychology grads with 2.1s making coffee in Starbucks on minimum wage, but school leaver plumbers pulling down "6 figs". Boris's dance card of things to be doing is long, and he's not really bucking down. Doing nothing is a big failure. That bothers me more than wallpaper s
t. IF they are smart, they might be letting that crap run; but if they are not perhaps seige mentality is setting in. And that's proper dumb, because the election result suggests he was put in to do "stuff".Brexit landed 20 years early, they are so on the back foot they need to be running at 8000mph by now. You and I both know the only solution or direction of travel for the EU HAS to be Federal and Fiscal transfers. That is never, ever flying here with our UK inequalities. It actually matters NOT to the UK what solution the EU seeks, we are out and the govt need to be dealing with that economic dent; but the inaction suggests they are conflicted (still) or worse hedging bets. Being wrong is always better than doing nothing.
It was deliberately harsh, s
t stirring even, but also honest. I have very little respect for the "I voted Tory because of the alternative" argument. Support them or don't, don't weasel out by absolving yourself of responsibility or of some claim that it was the least worst option. I actually prefer the ultras on that score, they may be a bit frothy but they're honest. I fully understand that FPTP makes that an impossible demand, I'm guilty too of voting for someone I don't want as they're the only one with a chance to beat the dead cert. Tactical voting could be eliminated by proper PR.I'll go back to my earlier comment, I don't think Corbyn ever had a serious chance of forming a majority government so the paranoia and fear about him was misplaced. But perfectly understandable given the media hype. If I seriously thought he'd be in power with an open red book of plans I'd sit with a beer on the edge of history and watch as the UK fell apart.
I wholeheartedly agree that most want to be governed and leave the hard stuff to someone else. To a large extent I do too. It's perfectly understandable that having delegated responsibility you should not have to keep monitoring progress. But the system is gamed into a them vs us and in reality they're all them, tinfoil hat I know, I know many decent and honest political activists, but in the big leagues they're pretty much two cheeks on the same arse.
I really do doubt that Boris can pull off levelling up, but if he can't noone can. So I hope he actually does manage it. I'll not over labour on what we agree on. The biggest doubt in my head is the wrongheaded definitions of what levelling up really should be. You're not one of them. But real levelling up as you're implying is addressing the reasons for the divide, not throwing money at a bit of infrastructure, and the sums involved are huge. If we're goal setting the final outcome would be a region that doesn't need additional spend to level the playing field because it has its own thriving economy and is a net contributor. Impossible to completely hit that goal but Boris likes a moon shot idea.
Blair was a victim of his time, but agreed he got the balance totally wrong on uni numbers. I've commented here before, maybe not on this thread, that I think they ballsed up when introducing student loans and not applying discrimination on who got them. Controversial maybe, and I know the arguments for third tier being about education rather than vocation. But if the tax payer is giving you a loan to do it they've a right to question your ability to pay it back
. Just make sure the terms are fair and don't overly discriminate against those from more disadvantaged backgrounds (which currently I think the balance isn't too bad on). I'm a proponent of sensible social engineering and am ready for the kick in the balls that that statement has left me open to.Agreed on your last paragraph. But "Being wrong is always better than doing nothing." got my little grey cells going. I might post something later on that final thought.
Tuna said:
Given that *nationwide* education provision is nothing to do with "levelling up", it comes as no surprise that you conflate the two.
Just think of the children, eh Stewie?
Yet helping those who have lost school days- and it will be the poorest who would have suffered the most - is exactly the sort of levelling up that is required.Just think of the children, eh Stewie?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Clubs say it's about taking a stance against racism and isn't political.
Players say it's about taking a stance against racism and isn't political.
The England manager says it's about taking a stance against racism and isn't political.
What does Lee Anderson know that they don't
Playing the race card, oh dear. He made it quite clear that he’s very much opposed to racism and his reasons for objecting to ‘taking the knee’. I’m betting you wouldn’t call out Zaha for the same, wonder why Players say it's about taking a stance against racism and isn't political.
The England manager says it's about taking a stance against racism and isn't political.
What does Lee Anderson know that they don't
ddom said:
Playing the race card, oh dear. He made it quite clear that he’s very much opposed to racism and his reasons for objecting to ‘taking the knee’. I’m betting you wouldn’t call out Zaha for the same, wonder why
Quoting a post an MP put on social media presumably with the intention of people seeing it.Is Zaha boycotting matches and saying that the players who do take the knee are supporting a political movement whilst banging on about undermining "our very way of life" or has he said he doesn't think it achieves anything and it's degrading as players still get racist abuse so he's chosen not to take part?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Quoting a post an MP put on social media presumably with the intention of people seeing it.
Is Zaha boycotting matches and saying that the players who do take the knee are supporting a political movement whilst banging on about undermining "our very way of life" or has he said he doesn't think it achieves anything and it's degrading as players still get racist abuse so he's chosen not to take part?
You can spin it all you wish, but placing a tenuous link to racism and linking it to BJ is poor form. You know full well what Zaha thinks about the situation, the fact you are still digging shows that you really just want to points score, no matter how desperate it may be.Is Zaha boycotting matches and saying that the players who do take the knee are supporting a political movement whilst banging on about undermining "our very way of life" or has he said he doesn't think it achieves anything and it's degrading as players still get racist abuse so he's chosen not to take part?
vonuber said:
Yet helping those who have lost school days- and it will be the poorest who would have suffered the most - is exactly the sort of levelling up that is required.
There is a bit of an argument over whether extending school days actually helps - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/schoo...Of course, Stewie doesn't care that Welsh Labour are avoiding paying billions for those extra hours, because they're doing it for the children.
ddom said:
You can spin it all you wish, but placing a tenuous link to racism and linking it to BJ is poor form. You know full well what Zaha thinks about the situation, the fact you are still digging shows that you really just want to points score, no matter how desperate it may be.
I'm quoting a post that Anderson put on social media.Andrew Bridgen did something similar.
Why would they put stuff on social media if they don't expect people to comment on it?
You made a comparison to Zaha when the two aren't at all comparable.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I'm quoting a post that Anderson put on social media.
Andrew Bridgen did something similar.
Why would they put stuff on social media if they don't expect people to comment on it?
You made a comparison to Zaha when the two aren't at all comparable.
It's more comparable than labelling Boris Johnson, or that MP as racists. Zaha, doesn't take the knee, says it's lost the message. But when others speak out it's racism, figures Andrew Bridgen did something similar.
Why would they put stuff on social media if they don't expect people to comment on it?
You made a comparison to Zaha when the two aren't at all comparable.
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