Van drives into crowd in Barcelona
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
i agree with you about people who believe in sky fairies btw ,its always struck my that you must be a bit weak if you need to lead your life according to a fairytale
the meaning of life is difficult to comprehend so I'm not surprised people take comfort in believing something digestible instead of pondering it to the point of insanity throughout their life. I don't judge people for doing so either.toasty said:
I think he has a point albeit a bit unrealistic with the blood.
A deterrent is required. From what little I understand, the perpetrators are promised enhanced status in the afterlife but this would not happen if the remains were not buried properly in the correct tradition.
If there was an international treaty to prevent the tradition from happening to the remains of terrorists so the enhanced afterlife would not be granted, then maybe they would be dissuaded from chasing martyrdom in the first place.
Maybe I'm just being naive.
As much as I get your point aren't we then in a way conceding that there may be some credibility to that frankly ridiculous belief set? I do agree we should just cremate them and through the ashes in a landfill. Although they'd probably twist that around such that all members of such a treaty would be subject to their silly little war on us non mouth breathers.A deterrent is required. From what little I understand, the perpetrators are promised enhanced status in the afterlife but this would not happen if the remains were not buried properly in the correct tradition.
If there was an international treaty to prevent the tradition from happening to the remains of terrorists so the enhanced afterlife would not be granted, then maybe they would be dissuaded from chasing martyrdom in the first place.
Maybe I'm just being naive.
It's one of those 'you can't argue with stupid' situations I think. You've got to be seriously f
king stupid to think that driving a van into a bunch of innocent people will win you favour with a deity. The deity you claim created those same people. The logic or lack there of is astounding.Boydie88 said:
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fk all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.
To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
I always find it a bit of a head scratcher when people say "they're not real Muslims!". If Catholics or Christians openly denounce homosexuals nobody says "Oh they're not real Catholics / Christians!". Take the DUP for example, everyone was in uproar when the Conservatives made a deal with them because of their 'backwards' religious beliefs but that's just it, it's not backward for them or their religion, it's par the course (abortion is still illegal in RoI as well as far as I recall and it's still difficult to get an abortion in Italy, Catholicism stills frowns on homosexuality, etc)! Some religions are moving with the times faster (CoE?) than others (yet still fairly glacial) and I'm not sure Islam has caught up that far yet regards LBGT rights, etc.k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
SeeFive said:
andy_s said:
Muslim is like Christian, it's formed of disparate branches, it'd be like the Pope excommunicating a CoE member.
Like a lot of things, the people concerned listen only to what's a positive reinforcement of their own views, for them it's the right thing to do and their ideological leaders support that.
A moderate senior Imam would have no impact directly, but may through percolation bring onside potential informers or other help from the wider Muslim community.
The problem I am trying to suggest they address formally and jointly from the top.Like a lot of things, the people concerned listen only to what's a positive reinforcement of their own views, for them it's the right thing to do and their ideological leaders support that.
A moderate senior Imam would have no impact directly, but may through percolation bring onside potential informers or other help from the wider Muslim community.
Boydie88 said:
SeeFive said:
I find it strange that these terrorists are still allowed to be viewed as Muslims given the Muslim folks I have encountered in my life bear no resemblance to them.
Let's face it, they commit atrocities, Imams and moderate muslims publicly denounce them, the terrorists publicly denounce Imams and issue death threats on them, and zero happens, they keep on unabated and associating their world domination aspirations with faith. Surely denouncing the top people and appointed leaders of a faith is cause for action within the faith?
Is there not a method to properly and insultingly ex-communicate certain individuals in the Islamic faith issued by the very top scholars? Perhaps then the rightly scared moderate Muslims could be free from fear in the afterlife (etc) to join focus on the problem, rather than have the non-Muslims generalise that "all muslims are bad" as is frequently intimated or stated by people with a true desire to put an end to this due to (in their view) having the mass quietly seemingly supporting the atrocities.
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fLet's face it, they commit atrocities, Imams and moderate muslims publicly denounce them, the terrorists publicly denounce Imams and issue death threats on them, and zero happens, they keep on unabated and associating their world domination aspirations with faith. Surely denouncing the top people and appointed leaders of a faith is cause for action within the faith?
Is there not a method to properly and insultingly ex-communicate certain individuals in the Islamic faith issued by the very top scholars? Perhaps then the rightly scared moderate Muslims could be free from fear in the afterlife (etc) to join focus on the problem, rather than have the non-Muslims generalise that "all muslims are bad" as is frequently intimated or stated by people with a true desire to put an end to this due to (in their view) having the mass quietly seemingly supporting the atrocities.
k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
Its a shock that more don't just denounce the whole religion themselves. If I was part of a ideology that was responsible for such atrocities. I would say "well if that's what Islam is being used as an excuse to do then I don't want any part of it."
WCZ said:
please everyone stop the sarcastic/whiney repetitive posts about facebook flags please, no one is under the illusion that it's effective action against terrorism - it's just a bit of harmless condolence for those who were affected.
Its virtue signaling and as empty and meaning less as condemning someone !SeeFive said:
Boydie88 said:
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fk all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.
To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So if the scholars can tell everyone they are wrong, then the masses have carte blanche to act against them? Not in my name confirmed from the top sort of thing...k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
andy_s said:
SeeFive said:
andy_s said:
Muslim is like Christian, it's formed of disparate branches, it'd be like the Pope excommunicating a CoE member.
Like a lot of things, the people concerned listen only to what's a positive reinforcement of their own views, for them it's the right thing to do and their ideological leaders support that.
A moderate senior Imam would have no impact directly, but may through percolation bring onside potential informers or other help from the wider Muslim community.
The problem I am trying to suggest they address formally and jointly from the top.Like a lot of things, the people concerned listen only to what's a positive reinforcement of their own views, for them it's the right thing to do and their ideological leaders support that.
A moderate senior Imam would have no impact directly, but may through percolation bring onside potential informers or other help from the wider Muslim community.
Possibly a very naive notion, but... well y'know, clutching at straws here to see how these people can be seen by the Muslim faith masses to be something that does not impact their promised outcomes if they stand against them.
Not-The-Messiah said:
Its a shock that more don't just denounce the whole religion themselves. If I was part of a ideology that was responsible for such atrocities. I would say "well if that's what Islam is being used as an excuse to do then I don't want any part of it."
Maybe you underestimate the part that Islam plays in their lives; it's not like Christianity - a bolt on, it's integral to their identity and daily life.SeeFive said:
Boydie88 said:
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fk all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.
To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So if the scholars can tell everyone they are wrong, then the masses have carte blanche to act against them? Not in my name confirmed from the top sort of thing...k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
kwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how f
ked up this world is at the minute.Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
Not-The-Messiah said:
Boydie88 said:
SeeFive said:
I find it strange that these terrorists are still allowed to be viewed as Muslims given the Muslim folks I have encountered in my life bear no resemblance to them.
Let's face it, they commit atrocities, Imams and moderate muslims publicly denounce them, the terrorists publicly denounce Imams and issue death threats on them, and zero happens, they keep on unabated and associating their world domination aspirations with faith. Surely denouncing the top people and appointed leaders of a faith is cause for action within the faith?
Is there not a method to properly and insultingly ex-communicate certain individuals in the Islamic faith issued by the very top scholars? Perhaps then the rightly scared moderate Muslims could be free from fear in the afterlife (etc) to join focus on the problem, rather than have the non-Muslims generalise that "all muslims are bad" as is frequently intimated or stated by people with a true desire to put an end to this due to (in their view) having the mass quietly seemingly supporting the atrocities.
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fLet's face it, they commit atrocities, Imams and moderate muslims publicly denounce them, the terrorists publicly denounce Imams and issue death threats on them, and zero happens, they keep on unabated and associating their world domination aspirations with faith. Surely denouncing the top people and appointed leaders of a faith is cause for action within the faith?
Is there not a method to properly and insultingly ex-communicate certain individuals in the Islamic faith issued by the very top scholars? Perhaps then the rightly scared moderate Muslims could be free from fear in the afterlife (etc) to join focus on the problem, rather than have the non-Muslims generalise that "all muslims are bad" as is frequently intimated or stated by people with a true desire to put an end to this due to (in their view) having the mass quietly seemingly supporting the atrocities.
k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
Its a shock that more don't just denounce the whole religion themselves. If I was part of a ideology that was responsible for such atrocities. I would say "well if that's what Islam is being used as an excuse to do then I don't want any part of it."
rscott said:
SeeFive said:
Boydie88 said:
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fk all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.
To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So if the scholars can tell everyone they are wrong, then the masses have carte blanche to act against them? Not in my name confirmed from the top sort of thing...k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So how is this being progressed? Now can they make it part of the teaching and formalise it? You know, create focus within the religion rather than a web page.
Cobnapint said:
The only way forward for Islam, and therefore the rest of civil society and the human race, is for the Koran to undergo massive reform. ie, take out the bits that are presently giving permission to these medievil fkwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.
In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how fked up this world is at the minute.
Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
The bible's the same. kwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how f
ked up this world is at the minute.Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
SeeFive said:
Ther is a top for all the others following their moderate leaders. So if those at the top act against the extremists claiming to be the same as them, then we move slightly forward?
Possibly a very naive notion, but... well y'know, clutching at straws here to see how these people can be seen by the Muslim faith masses to be something that does not impact their promised outcomes if they stand against them.
Any progress is good, probably another 500 years and things should be fine...!Possibly a very naive notion, but... well y'know, clutching at straws here to see how these people can be seen by the Muslim faith masses to be something that does not impact their promised outcomes if they stand against them.
As I say - it does have a positive peripheral effect (even if nothing else but to distance moderate everyday Islam from the more medieval interpretation) but as I mentioned previously, when looked at with the backdrop of ferocious intervention in their territory for decades you can see that the 'hearts and minds' game is a bit problematic.
SeeFive said:
rscott said:
SeeFive said:
Boydie88 said:
No sane, even half intelligent, mind thinks ALL Muslims are bad. But to call these extremists non Muslims is wrong. They consider themselves Muslims. They don't care what you or even moderate Muslims think. They believe their understanding of Islam to be the correct one. In their beliefs, even Muslims are legitimate targets if they don't share the stricter understanding they have. This is exactly why Imams etc denouncing them does fk all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.
To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So if the scholars can tell everyone they are wrong, then the masses have carte blanche to act against them? Not in my name confirmed from the top sort of thing...k all. To the extremists, Imam's of the Western world denouncing them is the same as any other religion/non religion denouncing them.To call them non Muslims because they are different to Muslims you and I know is wrong.
So how is this being progressed? Now can they make it part of the teaching and formalise it? You know, create focus within the religion rather than a web page.
I'd be interested to know the views of any British Muslims on it and whether it's ever been mentioned by their Imams.
rscott said:
Like this? http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/ .Sets out how the actions of IS go against Islam.
Except there are dozens of verses in their holy book that backs up what they do. It's a book full of contradiction. There are many branches from the same tree. The vast majority, like in all religions as education of our world increased, have grown away from the root of evil.They believe that they are the only true Islam. These are people brainwashed over years and years into believing after life will reward them. Words from what they'd consider non believers mean f
k all.Check out this guy https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace
Actively trying to raise awareness of the violent side of Islam and bring it inline with other modern religions... yet death threats where ever he goes from even the moderates never mind the extremes.
The fact Twitter considers his pinned tweet sensitive material shows how afraid the mainstream is of offending moderates.
Edited by Boydie88 on Friday 18th August 11:13
Cobnapint said:
The only way forward for Islam, and therefore the rest of civil society and the human race, is for the Koran to undergo massive reform. ie, take out the bits that are presently giving permission to these medievil fkwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.
In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how fked up this world is at the minute.
Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
Most of the people I know don't interpret the Koran in the way you have presented it. This is where the "all Muslims are bad" emanates from with some.kwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how f
ked up this world is at the minute.Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
So is a start to modern reform perhaps for the leaders to direct modern allowable interpretation, like a kind of new teaching targeting reform of some more extreme ideologies and make those invalid and allow practice against them?
I agree, reform is required. Just looking for potential of where to start, how, and by who.
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