RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
To respond to the question how many years of a pay freeze then?
Well the franchises employ the staff and had a model which they pitched and won a franchise. Now the rules of the game have been torn apart - there are materially lower footfall commuting which may or may not continue into perpetuity.
If people are not going to go back then we have too many trains railway staff and arguably then the tick prices are way too low to provide a business model for the franchises.
What can and should we use trains for?
Freight freight freight
Commuters waning
Leisure
Now leisure use needs the price per ticket to be comparable to a car - it isn’t it’s much more. It also ignores the house to train station time and cost. It also ignores the fact you can leave whoever you want vs a time table. It also ignores the fact you can carry far more luggage in a car than onto a train.
How do you address this?
Commuters reduced WFH etc. fewer trains is the answer - clearly means fewer staff for obvs.
Freight
Get them off the roads clogging up roads filthy fuel pollution. How do we get the cost of freight to be a no brainer to logistics companies?
How can we ensure it’s all joined up so instead of flying to a location or a holiday it’s easier and quicker door to door?
What are we going to do about woeful parking spaces at train stations with more and more councils removing parking in general to try to force people on buses (yet bus routes and frequencies reduced)
Well the franchises employ the staff and had a model which they pitched and won a franchise. Now the rules of the game have been torn apart - there are materially lower footfall commuting which may or may not continue into perpetuity.
If people are not going to go back then we have too many trains railway staff and arguably then the tick prices are way too low to provide a business model for the franchises.
What can and should we use trains for?
Freight freight freight
Commuters waning
Leisure
Now leisure use needs the price per ticket to be comparable to a car - it isn’t it’s much more. It also ignores the house to train station time and cost. It also ignores the fact you can leave whoever you want vs a time table. It also ignores the fact you can carry far more luggage in a car than onto a train.
How do you address this?
Commuters reduced WFH etc. fewer trains is the answer - clearly means fewer staff for obvs.
Freight
Get them off the roads clogging up roads filthy fuel pollution. How do we get the cost of freight to be a no brainer to logistics companies?
How can we ensure it’s all joined up so instead of flying to a location or a holiday it’s easier and quicker door to door?
What are we going to do about woeful parking spaces at train stations with more and more councils removing parking in general to try to force people on buses (yet bus routes and frequencies reduced)
Vasco said:
There's rather a lot of 'look at me, how important I am' on this thread from some rail staff who clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work
Are you serious?There are many posts in this thread from people ignorant of the industry but that hasn’t stopped them taking pops, making stupid comments and, when shown how ignorant their views actually are, choose to double-down with comments like the one I’ve quoted.
Members of PH with actual experience of the industry have answered questions and shown where you and others are wrong.
If you think that’s a show of self importance then it really says more about you then anything else.
Ignorance really seems to be bliss.
Electro1980 said:
98elise said:
Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?
Yes. They get that high pay by demanding it or saying they will leave. The right to withhold labour, just like the unions. The only difference is no one notices if the CEO does that. Make of that what you will.98elise said:
Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?
It's nothing to do with sneering at peasants (that says a lot about the lefts mind set). When lorry drivers started enjoying pay rises because they are in demand did anyone sneer at them?
Its rail workers exploiting a near monopoly position to feather their own nests at the expense of us peasants that's objectionable.
If it being a rail worker doesn't pay what you want to earn, don't take it up as a career. Do something worth of your dedication and brilliance.
Yep and just to make clear I was supportive of lorry drivers getting a fairer deal and pointing out the erosion of their pay differentials since 2004.It's nothing to do with sneering at peasants (that says a lot about the lefts mind set). When lorry drivers started enjoying pay rises because they are in demand did anyone sneer at them?
Its rail workers exploiting a near monopoly position to feather their own nests at the expense of us peasants that's objectionable.
If it being a rail worker doesn't pay what you want to earn, don't take it up as a career. Do something worth of your dedication and brilliance.
This isn't about workers getting a fair deal in a viable business. It is about people expecting the taxpayer to fund their pay rises in a failing one.
legzr1 said:
Vasco said:
There's rather a lot of 'look at me, how important I am' on this thread from some rail staff who clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work
Are you serious?There are many posts in this thread from people ignorant of the industry but that hasn’t stopped them taking pops, making stupid comments and, when shown how ignorant their views actually are, choose to double-down with comments like the one I’ve quoted.
Members of PH with actual experience of the industry have answered questions and shown where you and others are wrong.
If you think that’s a show of self importance then it really says more about you then anything else.
Ignorance really seems to be bliss.
My main point was that many rail staff clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work. There's not a high % of rail staff who move on to work outside the industry - presumably......
A....they're a bit scared of the real world
or
B....they know they are being well rewarded already
Which is it?
Vasco said:
People interpret things differently.
My main point was that many rail staff clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work. There's not a high % of rail staff who move on to work outside the industry - presumably......
A....they're a bit scared of the real world
or
B....they know they are being well rewarded already
Which is it?
C… they have invested a lot of time and work in qualifying for a well paid job and don’t want to start again from zero. My main point was that many rail staff clearly have no knowledge of how modern businesses work. There's not a high % of rail staff who move on to work outside the industry - presumably......
A....they're a bit scared of the real world
or
B....they know they are being well rewarded already
Which is it?
It’s clear those banging on about “modern business” have no idea about basic concepts of economics like barriers to entry.
Slaav said:
Living in London (ish) do I fly to Paris or train?
If booked in advance, I can do (Paris) leisure first on a brilliant service for similar from home in Glos to London when you include a taxi.
That seems rather strange?
Peak and flexible trains at short notice are obscene in the UK!
Which is by no means a reflection of the staff, but more the overall management and government support.If booked in advance, I can do (Paris) leisure first on a brilliant service for similar from home in Glos to London when you include a taxi.
That seems rather strange?
Peak and flexible trains at short notice are obscene in the UK!
Our West Coast mainline rail travel certainly took a turn for the worse when Virgin stopped operating. s
t trains and cancelled services abound.NWTony said:
Electro1980 said:
98elise said:
Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?
Yes. They get that high pay by demanding it or saying they will leave. The right to withhold labour, just like the unions. The only difference is no one notices if the CEO does that. Make of that what you will.sugerbear said:
NWTony said:
Electro1980 said:
98elise said:
Do CEO's blackmail their employers and customers?
Yes. They get that high pay by demanding it or saying they will leave. The right to withhold labour, just like the unions. The only difference is no one notices if the CEO does that. Make of that what you will.Electro1980 said:
Isn’t that the whole modus operandi of the current government, and one of the reasons we have the zombie economy we do? I think the windfall tax is a start, but still a long way off the societal cost. For example, Oil and gas industry was quite happy to take furlough money two years ago, but now is whining about having to pay some of the costs when they are doing well. Same with the finance industry. Quite happy to demand money in 2008. Quite happy for banks to be propped up by the state and the markets to get stabilised and protected. Also moan when they government wants them to play a part in protecting wider society.
Not sure they took furlough money, I work in downstream and they didn’t take furlough cash despite making losses during Covid. They’re making record profits now mind you. Downstream oil companies likely won’t get hit by the windfall tax, but from what I’ve seen of the oil companies they are very reluctant to invest unless they see a quick return, windfall tax will likely hit that investment, problem we have is that our oil and gas facilities are old and getting older. They’re getting worked harder and having less spent on them though. These are dangerous places that are going to get even more dangerous.
There’s a comparison with the rail industry too as these companies bidding for franchises will not invest for the last few years of their tenure for fear of not recouping that money by not re-winning the franchise.
Vasco said:
People interpret things differently.
From a position of ignorance, perhaps your interpretation may be wrong.When shown your errors, it’s simply ‘look at me!’ and Ggrrr Unions.
This thread could easily be read another way.
There are strength in numbers. I see a touch of envy from those with binary choices of grin and bear it or leave. That’s a shame. That’s NP&E.
legzr1 said:
From a position of ignorance, perhaps your interpretation may be wrong.
When shown your errors, it’s simply ‘look at me!’ and Ggrrr Unions.
This thread could easily be read another way.
There are strength in numbers. I see a touch of envy from those with binary choices of grin and bear it or leave. That’s a shame. That’s NP&E.
Oh well, clearly a waste of time to get your blinkers removed.When shown your errors, it’s simply ‘look at me!’ and Ggrrr Unions.
This thread could easily be read another way.
There are strength in numbers. I see a touch of envy from those with binary choices of grin and bear it or leave. That’s a shame. That’s NP&E.
Seeing as you can't see the point.....
Have a nice day.
NuckyThompson said:
Not sure they took furlough money, I work in downstream and they didn’t take furlough cash despite making losses during Covid. They’re making record profits now mind you.
Downstream oil companies likely won’t get hit by the windfall tax, but from what I’ve seen of the oil companies they are very reluctant to invest unless they see a quick return, windfall tax will likely hit that investment, problem we have is that our oil and gas facilities are old and getting older. They’re getting worked harder and having less spent on them though. These are dangerous places that are going to get even more dangerous.
There’s a comparison with the rail industry too as these companies bidding for franchises will not invest for the last few years of their tenure for fear of not recouping that money by not re-winning the franchise.
Ive said it before, but franchises are effectively dead. All risk is taken by government. The franchise is paid on a cost + % profit.Downstream oil companies likely won’t get hit by the windfall tax, but from what I’ve seen of the oil companies they are very reluctant to invest unless they see a quick return, windfall tax will likely hit that investment, problem we have is that our oil and gas facilities are old and getting older. They’re getting worked harder and having less spent on them though. These are dangerous places that are going to get even more dangerous.
There’s a comparison with the rail industry too as these companies bidding for franchises will not invest for the last few years of their tenure for fear of not recouping that money by not re-winning the franchise.
All this talk of franchises making heaps of cash, running away from responsibiliteis etc if just guff.
The franchises have no room for manouvere. Everything is decided by the D(a)ft.
It is, to all intents, nationalised.
Digga said:
Which is by no means a reflection of the staff, but more the overall management and government support.
Our West Coast mainline rail travel certainly took a turn for the worse when Virgin stopped operating. st trains and cancelled services abound.
The trains are the same ones as when virgin was operating. Our West Coast mainline rail travel certainly took a turn for the worse when Virgin stopped operating. s
t trains and cancelled services abound.monkfish1 said:
Digga said:
Which is by no means a reflection of the staff, but more the overall management and government support.
Our West Coast mainline rail travel certainly took a turn for the worse when Virgin stopped operating. st trains and cancelled services abound.
The trains are the same ones as when virgin was operating. Our West Coast mainline rail travel certainly took a turn for the worse when Virgin stopped operating. s
t trains and cancelled services abound.Vasco said:
Oh well, clearly a waste of time to get your blinkers removed.
That goes both ways, clearly.I’m in the industry. The vast majority of my friends and family are not. I see at first hand the effect of union / non-union employment.
You, judging by some of your posts and comments when the subject of Unions arises, do not.
I agree, one of us is blinkered.
I agree, we’re both wasting out time here.
Have a nice day.
Welshbeef said:
Commuters reduced WFH etc. fewer trains is the answer - clearly means fewer staff for obvs.
Or shorter trains. BR discovered in the 1980s (and Virgin CrossCountry in the 2000s) that if you run more, shorter, trains then you can generate demand. Unfortunately ScotRail have gone down the alternative route of running 6, 7 or 8 cars of fresh air with big gaps between them. I’d rather see proper “right sizing” of trains to reduce maintenance costs rather than service cuts, even though this means a need for more train crew.In saying that, for the trains, particularly in the South East, that do 2 rush hour jobs a day, yes, a lot of them ultimately need to be scrapped and those extra peak services thinned out a bit if it appears the rush hour is never going to properly recover.
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