London Protests (riot) this weekend....
Discussion
Lost_BMW said:
How many classics students transition to professions like engineering? More likely to teaching the same subject or politics, law, journalism etc. which have more direct routes available anyway (assuming we think they are useful at all!)
Well me for a start.The transition from classics to law and politics was once regarded as the primary route, indeed in politics the standard route is still classics-PPE-political career.
It has always been regarded as an excellent way in which to teach someone ordered, logical and clarity of thought. It gave ability to study bredth and depth and encouraged a wide range of thinking. As a subject, method and style of learning it has been around a couple of thousand years, I am afraid I rather lack the arrogance of modern man to think we know better now. Indeed I am rather more inclined to the view that since we have gone down the route of modern education "specialists" we seemed to have gone backwards rather than forwards in the quality of education provision in this country.
Actually Ill expand on this debate a little. There are frequent whinges and complaints about the state of modern British engineering, engineers and the lack of students studying engineering or science. This isnt true. There is still a highly qualified British engineering industry, highle efficient, productive and creative. There is a steady stream of engineering and scientific talent coming through the system and British engineers are still highly regarded...or arguably held in the highest regard of all...around the world. We export an awful lot of engineering talent, there are British engineers employed all over Europe and the world in many many companies. If you look inside the British engineeering world you will see that 99% of employees in the industry in Britain are actually British. Look outside Britain and you will be amazed at the difference, where there is a far bigger mix and how many Brits you will find employed. We are far far more successful in the engineering world than the doom mongerers would have you believe, we are just far more diverse than the media viewed norm.
Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
DJC said:
Actually Ill expand on this debate a little. There are frequent whinges and complaints about the state of modern British engineering, engineers and the lack of students studying engineering or science. This isnt true. There is still a highly qualified British engineering industry, highle efficient, productive and creative. There is a steady stream of engineering and scientific talent coming through the system and British engineers are still highly regarded...or arguably held in the highest regard of all...around the world. We export an awful lot of engineering talent, there are British engineers employed all over Europe and the world in many many companies. If you look inside the British engineeering world you will see that 99% of employees in the industry in Britain are actually British. Look outside Britain and you will be amazed at the difference, where there is a far bigger mix and how many Brits you will find employed. We are far far more successful in the engineering world than the doom mongerers would have you believe, we are just far more diverse than the media viewed norm.
Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
Oxford and Cambridge ( Cambridge is actually the best in the world) are two of the top centres in the world for scientific education and research. They also lead in arts subjects. This denigration of arts degrees is as silly as the old-fashioned snobbish denigration of science degrees was.
Just to use the example of lawyers: did you know that more than half of the revenue of the top ten law firms is earned outside the UK? Those firms are net exporters. I write this from Moscow where I am working on two IPOs for companies looking to list in London. We and the bankers involved don't manufacture things in factories in the Midlands, but we get foreigners to pay money into the British economy.
Just to use the example of lawyers: did you know that more than half of the revenue of the top ten law firms is earned outside the UK? Those firms are net exporters. I write this from Moscow where I am working on two IPOs for companies looking to list in London. We and the bankers involved don't manufacture things in factories in the Midlands, but we get foreigners to pay money into the British economy.
Buzz word said:
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.
Both my self and my brother work in an engineering environment. However we've taken the time proven apprentice route that evey principle/senior engineer I work with has undertaken. NC --> HNC --> (future) HND/BEng --> MEng.Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
Buzz word said:
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.
Engineering does pay. Im writing this from inside a meeting room in Vienna, where Im being paid rather well, waiting for a colleague to turn up. Of the money I earn, though I pay Swiss tax, 90% of it will be returned to the British economy, therefore being a net gain to the British economy.
DJC said:
Engineering does pay. Im writing this from inside a meeting room in Vienna, where Im being paid rather well, waiting for a colleague to turn up. Of the money I earn, though I pay Swiss tax, 90% of it will be returned to the British economy, therefore being a net gain to the British economy.
MorrisCRX said:
Both my self and my brother work in an engineering environment. However we've taken the time proven apprentice route that evey principle/senior engineer I work with has undertaken. NC --> HNC --> (future) HND/BEng --> MEng.
Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
I wish I worked where you two do then! It seems to me there is a very real ceiling at about 50k. To go through that it seems you need to go to management or have had a project managnemet role and leave for other sectors. I guess saying engineering doesn't pay at 50k may seem a little harsh but most people I know are on sub 40k and the guys out the sector with engineering quals are doing much better. Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
Buzz word said:
I wish I worked where you two do then! It seems to me there is a very real ceiling at about 50k. To go through that it seems you need to go to management or have had a project managnemet role and leave for other sectors. I guess saying engineering doesn't pay at 50k may seem a little harsh but most people I know are on sub 40k and the guys out the sector with engineering quals are doing much better.
Leave the country and seek positions abroad.Inside the UK, yes I agree with those figures.
Derek Smith said:
My point was that oxbridge gets massive subsidies which have just been increased. Science unis have had theirs cut.
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Derek Smith said:
Point taken.
When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
No Derek, you just have little knowledge of the engineering, science or the high tech industry and dont listen to those of us who do.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
JagLover said:
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.
They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Exactly. The idea that funding for Cambridge should be on the same level as for Westminster "University" is absurd.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Zod said:
JagLover said:
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.
They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Exactly. The idea that funding for Cambridge should be on the same level as for Westminster "University" is absurd.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
Du1point8 said:
Can I ask one thing, if you were studying Law at Oxford and then went on to the Law College there, using the current limits of fees at the moment, you would walk away with circa £40k of debit, how does this pay for anything?
Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
The £40k contributes to the cost of the education, the rest is covered by the funding of the university (both from public and private sources).Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
Derek Smith said:
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
I think Derek has hit the nail on the head that maybe we are looking at what 'engineering' is incorrectly.
We have an absolutely enormous number of bright kids going into software and tech and design etc. These are the kids who would have been inspired by ship building, cars, planes in our era (maybe byplanes in Dereks) but now what inspires them in their youth is modern tech.
Just in the South East alone there are enormous numbers of GUI designers and App builders and 'engineers' working for Apple and the like.
I don't think that engineering has demised at all in the UK, in fact I think in the last 10 years it has seen a resurgence the likes of which we have not seen since the Victorian days. It is simply that we are failing to recognise what engineering actually is in modern Britain.
DonkeyApple said:
Derek Smith said:
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
I think Derek has hit the nail on the head that maybe we are looking at what 'engineering' is incorrectly.
We have an absolutely enormous number of bright kids going into software and tech and design etc. These are the kids who would have been inspired by ship building, cars, planes in our era (maybe byplanes in Dereks) but now what inspires them in their youth is modern tech.
Just in the South East alone there are enormous numbers of GUI designers and App builders and 'engineers' working for Apple and the like.
I don't think that engineering has demised at all in the UK, in fact I think in the last 10 years it has seen a resurgence the likes of which we have not seen since the Victorian days. It is simply that we are failing to recognise what engineering actually is in modern Britain.
There is friction within some groups of "engineers" at plumbers calling themselves Heating Engineers & Electricians calling themselves Electrical Engineers.
There is a difference between heavy & light engineering, fabrication & design etc.
Then there are those who didn't get the requisite degree and/or membership of the recognised body (CIBSE, IET etc).
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where to be an engineer, one had to own & use a slide rule
On a slightly different tack, I heard some woman speaking on R4 on Sunday morning stating that what we need in the UK to get us out of this mess is manufacturing.
Which might possibly work, but then her & all the rest would need to support such a venture by not buying all the cheap imports that contributed to the demise of previous industry.
Ironically, although a confirmed labour supporter always voting for them whatever, she decided to spoil her ballot paper at the last election.
Which leads me to my view that wee need to be encouraging & training many more school leavers at 16 in trades, rather than filling their heads with more full-time education & the carrot that is university as an alternative to work.
Only by rightly sorting the wheat from the chaff & re-aligning the suitability of candidates for further/higher education will things improve.
I just wonder if anyone in charge has the balls to stand up & admit that the social experiment of insisting that everyone is as intelligent as everyone else was a crock & has contributed to this present mess.
The particular type of engineering we have a tradition of in this country seems to be of making innovative products. Making something nobody has made before.
The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
The Japanese in particular understand that finding a way to mass produce a product in such a way that it's reliable and makes a profit is just as much a achievement as innovation. In Britain we seem to think we have done out bit once we've invested something novel. So we have a constant stream of jet airliners, FWD small cars, hovercraft, light aircraft, rotary engined motorbikes, weird computers, etc etc that are very innovative and in some ways brilliant designs but either unreliable or unprofitable.
Then when someone else realises that figuring out how to produce something consistently and profitably is what really matters, we get left behind.
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