The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread
Discussion
unident said:
NMNeil said:
Thank you, but the standard knee jerk reaction was expected.
I'm not pro gun, don't belong to the NRA, consider the bible a work of fiction and am a firm believer in keeping guns, knives and cars out of the hands of people who can't be trusted with a deadly weapon, no matter what that weapon or potential weapon is.
But every time a nutter goes on a rampage and killing spree with a gun the media are all over it with cries of "ban guns". This was the same reaction in the UK and Australia, so they effectively banned guns with only those who had been thoroughly vetted being allowed to own one, such as Jake Davison, showing that vetting doesn't work.
So rather than insult me PH members, what do you suggest to stop the madness of nutters with guns, knives and cars? We know the problem, so come up with a solution rather than just sit in your chair throwing unwarranted insults.
Picking incidents that are a once in a decade or longer event to try to justify the weekly mass shootings in the US is ridiculous. I'm not pro gun, don't belong to the NRA, consider the bible a work of fiction and am a firm believer in keeping guns, knives and cars out of the hands of people who can't be trusted with a deadly weapon, no matter what that weapon or potential weapon is.
But every time a nutter goes on a rampage and killing spree with a gun the media are all over it with cries of "ban guns". This was the same reaction in the UK and Australia, so they effectively banned guns with only those who had been thoroughly vetted being allowed to own one, such as Jake Davison, showing that vetting doesn't work.
So rather than insult me PH members, what do you suggest to stop the madness of nutters with guns, knives and cars? We know the problem, so come up with a solution rather than just sit in your chair throwing unwarranted insults.
Show me a weekly mass shooting list in any five First World countries that you’d like to pick and I’ll give your argument some more consideration.
Whilst you’re at it, would you care to answer the question I posed a few pages back
Next
the tribester said:
With all the vetting in the UK, how many Jake Davison incidents have there been in the UK in 2022?, none, compare that with the number of school mass shootings in the US in 2022 so far. It's got to be worth some sort of additional gun control surely.
And what gun control do you suggest?robsa said:
gotoPzero said:
ATG said:
Indeed, and its exactly the same reason that people chose to buy AR-15s for self-defence. They are compact, light, semi-automatic, large capacity magazines are standard. They aren't very accurate at long range. They're designed for shooting things nearby and are usually fitted with sights that let you quickly aim and shoot at close targets. They are designed to do a particular job and they're very good at it and that's what people buy them for. And that's before you start considering the "coolness" factor and the army fantasy bollcoks. Anyone saying AR-15s and similarly designed guns are no more or less of a threat than any other type of gun might want to explain why you don't equip the army with hunting rifles. The more effective a weapon is, the more dangerous it is when misused. It is rather odd to try to argue otherwise.
I think something you have to remember is roughly 15% of all males in the United States currently alive have military experience and are trained on the M4. Thats a lot of people.NMNeil said:
gotoPzero said:
Its also very interesting that the .280cal intermediate cartridge selected is firmly in the hunting range..... like you say why don't the Army have hunting rifles...well from 2025 they will!
Is that the same .280 round that was developed for the EM2 back in the 50's?croyde said:
Tankrizzo said:
The thing that boggles my mind is that the law allowed an 18 year old boy - just a kid really - to buy a weapon like that and ammo. We all know 18 year old lads, I wouldn't trust them with driving a car properly let alone handling a weapon like that.
If my 18 year old were allowed free unfettered use of a semi auto rifle, there would be no one left in our London Borough.Utter madness
There's utter madness for you.
And here at 18 you are classed as an adult, despite the numerous news items proving that some teenagers would need to be watered twice a day if they were any dumber.
https://www.carscoops.com/2017/03/watch-16-year-ol...
simo1863 said:
Vetting does work. Jake Davidson shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near his shotguns. Three officers suspended currently, pending investigation.
All of the UKs high profile shootings have been similar, Derek Bird and Thomas Hamilton (which was because he shared the same 'lodge' as a senior member of the local constabulary) both shouldnt have been allowed near their firearms.
We've needed reform of that process for a long time, it shouldn't sit with the police, but banning whichever guns were used is a stupid solution that only people who don't understand guns would suggest (see the recent motion to ban pump action shotguns, which would just push people toward the potentially more deadly semi automatics), but vetting (if done correctly) does work.
Sorry, this is sort of off topic, but its worth a response.
Thank you for a rare cognitive answer, and I had no idea that Mr. Davidson had fallen through the cracks so to speak.All of the UKs high profile shootings have been similar, Derek Bird and Thomas Hamilton (which was because he shared the same 'lodge' as a senior member of the local constabulary) both shouldnt have been allowed near their firearms.
We've needed reform of that process for a long time, it shouldn't sit with the police, but banning whichever guns were used is a stupid solution that only people who don't understand guns would suggest (see the recent motion to ban pump action shotguns, which would just push people toward the potentially more deadly semi automatics), but vetting (if done correctly) does work.
Sorry, this is sort of off topic, but its worth a response.
If you ban something that's dangerous in the wrong hands, it only makes it more valuable on the black market for those who simply ignore bans.
gotoPzero said:
HM-2 said:
Why are AR-15s so massively overrepresented
Some interesting stats https://everytownresearch.org/maps/mass-shootings-...
Everytown don't actually appear to define what an "Assault Weapon" is, and many of the "interesting" stats affirm the point I was making. 25% of all deaths and 75%(!) of all injuries stemming from mass shooting incidents being attributed to a class of weapon that's apparently only used in 16% of mass shootings by their definition over the analysis timeframe clearly supports many of the points I've made. And there are several fairly salient points about statistical evidence affirming that restrictions on both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines significantly decrease the rate of mass shootings.
NMNeil said:
But here a 16 year old can legally own and drive a 200mph sportscar on the public roads.
And how is that relevant? 16 year olds in Ferraris tend to have a much lower statistical instance of killing other people. Edited by HM-2 on Friday 27th May 17:50
Gweeds said:
https://twitter.com/importantmeagan/status/1529807...
"she always brushed her teeth" is one of the most devastating things i have ever heard. this is where these kids were at in their lives. and they were taken out because our country's leadership cares more about gun sales than they do about children."
Christ that video below showing the police holding the parent's back. Those screams / wails are going to give me nightmares tonight."she always brushed her teeth" is one of the most devastating things i have ever heard. this is where these kids were at in their lives. and they were taken out because our country's leadership cares more about gun sales than they do about children."
gotoPzero said:
No its 6.8x51. The cases are bespoke brass with steel case heads. Sig are building a new factory to make the ammo.
The big push here is for the military to adopt the 6.8mm with a polymer case. They claim to have solved the cook off problem.https://www.virtusammo.com/
HM-2 said:
robsa said:
gotoPzero said:
ATG said:
Indeed, and its exactly the same reason that people chose to buy AR-15s for self-defence. They are compact, light, semi-automatic, large capacity magazines are standard. They aren't very accurate at long range. They're designed for shooting things nearby and are usually fitted with sights that let you quickly aim and shoot at close targets. They are designed to do a particular job and they're very good at it and that's what people buy them for. And that's before you start considering the "coolness" factor and the army fantasy bollcoks. Anyone saying AR-15s and similarly designed guns are no more or less of a threat than any other type of gun might want to explain why you don't equip the army with hunting rifles. The more effective a weapon is, the more dangerous it is when misused. It is rather odd to try to argue otherwise.
I think something you have to remember is roughly 15% of all males in the United States currently alive have military experience and are trained on the M4. Thats a lot of people.FFS, M16....M4.... the vast majority will have served with the M16 variant, which became the M4. They are essentially the same rifle.
Anyone who served in any capacity from the 60s onwards will have trained on the M16 or one of its variants which include the M4.
NMNeil said:
ATG said:
NMNeil said:
gotoPzero said:
Gweeds said:
Note how MNeil says nothing about the kids and teachers killed.
Because he’s more interested in guns than lives.
Dude come on you don't even know the guy lets keep it to friendly banter?Because he’s more interested in guns than lives.
I'm not pro gun, don't belong to the NRA, consider the bible a work of fiction and am a firm believer in keeping guns, knives and cars out of the hands of people who can't be trusted with a deadly weapon, no matter what that weapon or potential weapon is.
But every time a nutter goes on a rampage and killing spree with a gun the media are all over it with cries of "ban guns". This was the same reaction in the UK and Australia, so they effectively banned guns with only those who had been thoroughly vetted being allowed to own one, such as Jake Davison, showing that vetting doesn't work.
So rather than insult me PH members, what do you suggest to stop the madness of nutters with guns, knives and cars? We know the problem, so come up with a solution rather than just sit in your chair throwing unwarranted insults.
As to its effectiveness, look at the statistics. Pulling a single incident out and saying "proves it doesn't work" is ridiculous. Look at the numbers in aggregate.
It is obvious that people do not substitute knives or cars or cans of petrol or poison for guns and then go on the rampage anyway. It just doesn't happen. Look at the number of mass murders in the States compared to mass murders in other developed countries.
Giving a lunatic an effective tool to use makes them more dangerous. It is crazy to claim otherwise.
Next
NMNeil said:
gotoPzero said:
No its 6.8x51. The cases are bespoke brass with steel case heads. Sig are building a new factory to make the ammo.
The big push here is for the military to adopt the 6.8mm with a polymer case. They claim to have solved the cook off problem.https://www.virtusammo.com/
They went with a steel case head to allow higher pressures.
From what I have seen so far felt recoil is going to be a real big issue over 5.56. A discussion for another thread though.
Trouble is now, these massacres are a thing now and any mentally ill, disaffected loner has awareness of them and potentially access to guns.
Wonder how many have considered it ?
Ffs we have presidents that do similar on a bigger scale, Putin is a school shooter only older and doing it on a bigger scale, potentially much, much bigger.
Humans are too fallible to have access to weapons or any means to perform mass killing, especially male ones.
Nothing will happen, until the next one then…
Wonder how many have considered it ?
Ffs we have presidents that do similar on a bigger scale, Putin is a school shooter only older and doing it on a bigger scale, potentially much, much bigger.
Humans are too fallible to have access to weapons or any means to perform mass killing, especially male ones.
Nothing will happen, until the next one then…
NMNeil said:
croyde said:
Tankrizzo said:
The thing that boggles my mind is that the law allowed an 18 year old boy - just a kid really - to buy a weapon like that and ammo. We all know 18 year old lads, I wouldn't trust them with driving a car properly let alone handling a weapon like that.
If my 18 year old were allowed free unfettered use of a semi auto rifle, there would be no one left in our London Borough.Utter madness
There's utter madness for you.
And here at 18 you are classed as an adult, despite the numerous news items proving that some teenagers would need to be watered twice a day if they were any dumber.
https://www.carscoops.com/2017/03/watch-16-year-ol...
Cretin.
NMNeil said:
unident said:
NMNeil said:
Thank you, but the standard knee jerk reaction was expected.
I'm not pro gun, don't belong to the NRA, consider the bible a work of fiction and am a firm believer in keeping guns, knives and cars out of the hands of people who can't be trusted with a deadly weapon, no matter what that weapon or potential weapon is.
But every time a nutter goes on a rampage and killing spree with a gun the media are all over it with cries of "ban guns". This was the same reaction in the UK and Australia, so they effectively banned guns with only those who had been thoroughly vetted being allowed to own one, such as Jake Davison, showing that vetting doesn't work.
So rather than insult me PH members, what do you suggest to stop the madness of nutters with guns, knives and cars? We know the problem, so come up with a solution rather than just sit in your chair throwing unwarranted insults.
Picking incidents that are a once in a decade or longer event to try to justify the weekly mass shootings in the US is ridiculous. I'm not pro gun, don't belong to the NRA, consider the bible a work of fiction and am a firm believer in keeping guns, knives and cars out of the hands of people who can't be trusted with a deadly weapon, no matter what that weapon or potential weapon is.
But every time a nutter goes on a rampage and killing spree with a gun the media are all over it with cries of "ban guns". This was the same reaction in the UK and Australia, so they effectively banned guns with only those who had been thoroughly vetted being allowed to own one, such as Jake Davison, showing that vetting doesn't work.
So rather than insult me PH members, what do you suggest to stop the madness of nutters with guns, knives and cars? We know the problem, so come up with a solution rather than just sit in your chair throwing unwarranted insults.
Show me a weekly mass shooting list in any five First World countries that you’d like to pick and I’ll give your argument some more consideration.
Whilst you’re at it, would you care to answer the question I posed a few pages back
Next
I’ve got loads of ideas. However, you dismiss them out of hand because “ummm, y’all know, like, the right to bear arms, mmmmkay”. Meanwhile, you refuse to answer simple questions that drive a bus through your whataboutism.
hidetheelephants said:
unident said:
hidetheelephants said:
Vetting may work if it is done properly, but it is not; Hamilton slaughtered children in a school in 1996 with guns he should not have possessed due to being unfit. After the tabloid-pleasing handgun ban no real effort was made to correct this regulatory failing and it's been repeated many times since, most recently with Jake Davison. firearms officers are too few in number, there seems to be little oversight and no means by which to compel GPs to respond in a timely manner(or at all).
What’s been “repeated many times since”? Certainly not mass shootings in the UK. The worst instances subsequently were mainly NI related as far as I can see
The NRA is a cancer and the medicine the US needs is campaign finance reform; ban lobbying of this kind, restrict the amount of money raised, size of donations and who it can be donated by. Mitt Romney etc are hardly likely to vote for gun reform when the NRA are paying them millions of dollars?
I grew up in a border town in The Republic of Ireland. Guns, illegal ones were a problem as were murders. However, even then a murder, a single murder, with one was still headline news.
Mass shootings are not an issue here, even criminals find it very difficult to get hold of firearms.
ATG said:
MKnight702 said:
ATG said:
It's not about the individual model of rifle. It's about what it is designed to do and where it sits in people's imagination. AR-15 or any other form of assault or battle rifle ALL differ from a hunting rifle in the same way. The latter are all about being able to place single shots accurately, the former are all about being able to attack or defend against people who are similarly armed. So, no, no army is going to be equipped with anything like a hunting rifle even if the military rifle happens to be chambered for a round you could also use to kill a deer.
You have been sadly misinformed. The AR-15 is neither an assault rifle or "battle rifle" it looks similar to the M4 which is a military firearm but that's it.Which of the two rifles below would you ban?
Clue, they both shoot the same cartridge, they both take the same magazines, they are both semi automatic with similar rates of fire. The main difference is the top one is in pole position on the "guns to ban" list because it looks scary, the bottom one doesn't get a second look as it looks like granddad's hunting rifle.
I repeat my statement that the rifle does not trigger the crime, make the AR-15 magically vanish and the shooters would simply choose something else. The problem is the person holding the gun not the gun they are holding. Stop selling guns to unsuitable people and the problem will reduce (not go away, that's a point for another day).
If you look at statistics that speeding motorists mostly drive Audis it should not lead you to the conclusion to ban selling Audis. The problem is the driver, not the car.
Edited by MKnight702 on Friday 27th May 16:09
An AR-15 and an M4 are vastly more similar to each other than they are to a bolt action rifle. To say the only similarity between an AR-15 and an M4 is their "looks" is ridiculous.
As to "which would I ban", neither of them. I haven't called for AR-15s to be banned. I'd suggest putting some proper vetting in place for BOTH of them. Anyone who says "I need an AR-15 (or any other semi-automatic rifle) to defend myself" doesn't get to have one because they've already demonstrated that they're deluded. Valid reason to have one might be "I like them, I know how to use them, I'm a member of a rifle club with a suitable range and I'll keep it there because they've got a secure armoury. My doctor will tell you that I'm not mentally ill and I can provide some credible character witnesses who'll say I don't start fantasising about killing people every time I get drunk."
In reality what I consider to be proper vetting would massively reduce the number of AR-15s in the States, so the practical difference between a ban and proper vetting would be pretty small for all those who are calling for a ban, and I doubt those people would actually care if a small number were still owned privately by responsible individuals. In reality, they wouldn't know the guns were there. For example, it might come as a surprise to some that plenty of British high schools have rifle ranges and use a mix of bolt action and what you could colloquially call "modified SA-80 assault rifles". Try googling "CCF rifle range school UK". It's all done safely and responsibly, so you never hear about it unless you're directly involved.
And any rifle that carries more than two rounds.
and handguns.
If a people can't handle its toys, its time they are taken away.
NMNeil said:
Thank you for a rare cognitive answer, and I had no idea that Mr. Davidson had fallen through the cracks so to speak.
If you ban something that's dangerous in the wrong hands, it only makes it more valuable on the black market for those who simply ignore bans.
It's also worth noting (from your other comments) that you can have a firearm licence in the UK at the age of 14 (my 15 year old has one), but unlike the US, there are very clear guidelines over reasons and also a more personal approach with 1 on 1 conversations with officers about training and understanding of safety with parents/guardians. It makes me uncomfortable even seeing my kids point toy/nerf guns at each other and I can't see any other licence holder being any different.If you ban something that's dangerous in the wrong hands, it only makes it more valuable on the black market for those who simply ignore bans.
k me. Gary C said:
I would ban both of them.
And any rifle that carries more than two rounds.
and handguns.
If a people can't handle its toys, its time they are taken away.
So what you are saying is everyone should be punished for the actions of a few? So, god forbid, if Brake ever get the attention that they desperately crave, you would be perfectly happy for a total car ban or blanket 20mph speed limits because some people can’t be trusted not to speed?And any rifle that carries more than two rounds.
and handguns.
If a people can't handle its toys, its time they are taken away.
The US has a big problem, but it isn’t simply too many guns, other countries also have similar levels of gun ownership but don’t have the same problem with gun crime, so clearly, the problem can’t simply be gun ownership. As I have suggested already, I believe the woeful state of the US healthcare system is partly to blame. Also, the almost unfettered access to the whole range of firearms with little or no review of the potential owner.
In short, don’t blame the tool, blame the user. None of the firearms I have owned or used have leapt up and run amuck, nor have I ever heard of such a thing happening. If there is ever a problem, it is the nut behind the trigger. Look at Plymouth, we have some of the most stringent firearms legislation in the world, yet the Police dropped the ball and gave back rightly confiscated shotguns, the nutter then did what nutters do. The problem was the nutter was given access to something he shouldn’t have been.
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