This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)
Discussion
AJS- said:
It would depend on how you define educated and clued up but I don't think Greece is suffering from a lack of education as such. They send a huge proportion of students abroad, and many study Masters degrees and PhDs. Look at the academic staff in most British universities and you will find Greeks represented. I remember talking to a regular policeman in a suburb of Athens who had a doctorate in sociology.
In fact I would think their habit of not really entering employment until their late 20s and sending their brightest young people abroad for years on end is probably a bigger problem than their lack of education.
Sorry but personal anecdotes do not the truth make. If you check official OECD figures, Greece is still lagging behind the rest of Europe in terms of people who have attained even secondary level education. Look at the further\higher education stats and they are further behind still. Yes the younger generation are helping to pull those stats up and things are improving but for the over 50 population, the figures are even worse. I'm not saying education is the be all and end all but it certainly helps to have some understanding of what is going on when the future of your country is at stake.In fact I would think their habit of not really entering employment until their late 20s and sending their brightest young people abroad for years on end is probably a bigger problem than their lack of education.
This isn't an attack on Greece by the way as I am descendent from another country which also has a very poor education record and have seen how the low base level of education can be used and manipulated by a corrupt government to lead it's populace up a garden path.
Borghetto said:
AJS- said:
I remember talking to a regular policeman in a suburb of Athens who had a doctorate in sociology.
Now you've made me spill my coffee down my front."Sociology? You've got an ology and you say you've failed?" "Get an ology and you're a scientist!"
I'm sure that's true, especially about the over 50s. Greece was surely a very different place 50 years ago.
It can't help that so many productive aged people are studying stuff so long into their productive lives though.
FWIW I think this applies to the west in general, not just to Greece, though like debt they might be a front runner at it.
It can't help that so many productive aged people are studying stuff so long into their productive lives though.
FWIW I think this applies to the west in general, not just to Greece, though like debt they might be a front runner at it.
A sad day and I can only help Tsipras turns this on its head and once enough money comes in from the bailout he puts wheels in motion to go back to the Drachma and defaults on Greeks bailout.
The EU really are pure evil and that is why I am so against them. They will do whatever they can to protect their ideology against the will and suffering of anyone who stands in their way.
I also found it very amusing that the Ukraiians PM was spouting off about greece yesterday and saying how the Eu is a good thing and the way forward yet it was his coutries unilateral decision to join up to the EU that started the whole fracas and has caused so much death destruction and despair nevermind the fact that the Ukrainian economy is in the pan and getting wose under Eu rule.
A joke really.
The EU really are pure evil and that is why I am so against them. They will do whatever they can to protect their ideology against the will and suffering of anyone who stands in their way.
I also found it very amusing that the Ukraiians PM was spouting off about greece yesterday and saying how the Eu is a good thing and the way forward yet it was his coutries unilateral decision to join up to the EU that started the whole fracas and has caused so much death destruction and despair nevermind the fact that the Ukrainian economy is in the pan and getting wose under Eu rule.
A joke really.
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Many believe Hitler failed. I disagree. There are many ways to describe the Eu and tha tpeople use to describe them. We could also liken the EU to rapists. Like all rapists they have interest in what their victim wants says or does. They will do as they please. No is yes. Ireland. Italy. Ukraine and so on.
Can they be beaten? Yes but it would require leadership and as yet there has been leaders willing to stand up to them.
Frankly if Cameron had a spine and wasnt such a stauch Europhile and American suck up he could have brought the whole house down.
He could have set up a deal with other countries including russia to to provide funds to Greece so they could preform a structured exit from the Euro project. He didnt. Instead as usual he and his party did their whole smoke and mirrors thing of stating they would not allow the EU to use around £1billion pounds of UK funds to help with the Greek bailout.
Of course soon the spin will start and they will show that they managed to restrict the amount paid out to either below the amount originally touted OR they will claim they restricted it to no more than was originally touted.
The UK if and when we get our EU referndum will vote to stay in.
Can they be beaten? Yes but it would require leadership and as yet there has been leaders willing to stand up to them.
Frankly if Cameron had a spine and wasnt such a stauch Europhile and American suck up he could have brought the whole house down.
He could have set up a deal with other countries including russia to to provide funds to Greece so they could preform a structured exit from the Euro project. He didnt. Instead as usual he and his party did their whole smoke and mirrors thing of stating they would not allow the EU to use around £1billion pounds of UK funds to help with the Greek bailout.
Of course soon the spin will start and they will show that they managed to restrict the amount paid out to either below the amount originally touted OR they will claim they restricted it to no more than was originally touted.
The UK if and when we get our EU referndum will vote to stay in.
jimmybobby said:
Many believe Hitler failed. I disagree. There are many ways to describe the Eu and tha tpeople use to describe them. We could also liken the EU to rapists. Like all rapists they have interest in what their victim wants says or does. They will do as they please. No is yes. Ireland. Italy. Ukraine and so on.
Can they be beaten? Yes but it would require leadership and as yet there has been leaders willing to stand up to them.
Frankly if Cameron had a spine and wasnt such a stauch Europhile and American suck up he could have brought the whole house down.
He could have set up a deal with other countries including russia to to provide funds to Greece so they could preform a structured exit from the Euro project. He didnt. Instead as usual he and his party did their whole smoke and mirrors thing of stating they would not allow the EU to use around £1billion pounds of UK funds to help with the Greek bailout.
Of course soon the spin will start and they will show that they managed to restrict the amount paid out to either below the amount originally touted OR they will claim they restricted it to no more than was originally touted.
The UK if and when we get our EU referndum will vote to stay in.
Right . . .Can they be beaten? Yes but it would require leadership and as yet there has been leaders willing to stand up to them.
Frankly if Cameron had a spine and wasnt such a stauch Europhile and American suck up he could have brought the whole house down.
He could have set up a deal with other countries including russia to to provide funds to Greece so they could preform a structured exit from the Euro project. He didnt. Instead as usual he and his party did their whole smoke and mirrors thing of stating they would not allow the EU to use around £1billion pounds of UK funds to help with the Greek bailout.
Of course soon the spin will start and they will show that they managed to restrict the amount paid out to either below the amount originally touted OR they will claim they restricted it to no more than was originally touted.
The UK if and when we get our EU referndum will vote to stay in.
So Hitler put on an act of being completely mad whilst all the time his plan was for Germany to be split in two, the east run by a dictatorship and the west to be run, initially, but a consortium of the victorious allies. And France.
He knew that the USA would abandon it belief in isolationism and throw money at the country, not only in Marhsall Aid, but with the funds that came from the occupying forces, this going on for years.
Hitler knew that there would be a British soldier who, realising that Germany needed an industry, organised their fledgling - nonexistent actually - car building which, in turn, allowed them to build up a world beating car industry.
He knew that the UK would, after a very closely managed start, allow the profit motive to dominate which would generate the collapse of so many industries.
He realised that France would, through fear of repeated invasions, organise interdependency and also allow Germany, then just half of course, to join in order to stabilise European industry.
This organisation would generate the most stable 70 years Europe had known since, well when?
Hitler also knew about the Eurozone and that Ireland would be run by idiots and the dream of a tiger economy would wreck it. Then Greece would follow allowing Germany to lend money, so allowing them to dominate Europe.
You’ve got to hand it to that Hitler chappie. He might not have known that Russia got cold in winter, but he could predict the future.
Or maybe we have squandered our resources in various ways, had a spending spree and periodically suffer recessions due to lack of financial control. Maybe Germany, albeit through fear of hyperinflation - which wasn’t the main reason for their problems - managed their economy a damn site better.
I’ve seen the Hitler Channel on TV, sometimes known as the History Channel, and from what I can gather, old Adolf made a few mistakes.
Perhaps the post Hitler German leaders (at least some of them) realised that you get nothing for nothing and that if you want success you have to work for it. Perhaps their political parties were not so divisive as ours and had a common purpose in the main, the ways of getting their being the main difference.
Perhaps it is a good idea to turn to a country run by a megalomaniac with delusions of adequacy, who is willing to take the world to the brink of war and is expansionist. A country that is virtually broke, apart from its natural resources. I'll take your word for some form of political alliance with Russia being a good idea, or at least better than the methods we are using now.
I consider that I’ve got a spine, but I wouldn’t accept surrender from the Russians at the moment, let alone help.
Got to hand it to that Hitler bloke: totally destroys Germany in order for it to be able to dominate again. Eat your heart out, Phoenix.
I’ve got not truck with Cameron: I think he and Brown are our worst PMs since the war. But I’ve got considerably less with Putin.
Or, to put it another way, Hitler failed big time. There are some books on the subject I think.
Wow Derek taking me a little literally there. I dont truly believe this was HIS plan merely that Germany plans to finish in a different sort of what what he started.
I am a conservative voter but have never been a cameron fan as I consider him to be weak, leftist and europhile and twofaced.
I am a conservative voter but have never been a cameron fan as I consider him to be weak, leftist and europhile and twofaced.
jimmybobby said:
Wow Derek taking me a little literally there. I dont truly believe this was HIS plan merely that Germany plans to finish in a different sort of what what he started.
I am a conservative voter but have never been a cameron fan as I consider him to be weak, leftist and europhile and twofaced.
Nor was I. I was merely stating that the German domination of Europe is a consequence of circumstance and not a deliberate policy. They dominate because of their financial clout. However, if they carry on funding the backsliders, their voters will rebel and it will become more isolationist. Everything is temporary in politics. I am a conservative voter but have never been a cameron fan as I consider him to be weak, leftist and europhile and twofaced.
I prefer a Germany committed to working with other countries.
I have voted for all three main parties. I have no particular belief in party politics. In fact I am a bit like an atheist wondering why believers in a particular religion think everything is wonderful in what they believe and evil in the others. No personal offence but I am stunned when a supposedly intelligent person says they believe in a god, and only less so when they say they always vote for a particular party.
Cameron is dominated by lobbyists, particularly Murdoch, but also by all those who contribute to the tory party, such as the building industry. I believe that his major problem is not financial but trying to run a divided party. He is small-minded.
Derek Smith said:
Nor was I. I was merely stating that the German domination of Europe is a consequence of circumstance and not a deliberate policy. They dominate because of their financial clout. However, if they carry on funding the backsliders, their voters will rebel and it will become more isolationist. Everything is temporary in politics.
I prefer a Germany committed to working with other countries.
I have voted for all three main parties. I have no particular belief in party politics. In fact I am a bit like an atheist wondering why believers in a particular religion think everything is wonderful in what they believe and evil in the others. No personal offence but I am stunned when a supposedly intelligent person says they believe in a god, and only less so when they say they always vote for a particular party.
Cameron is dominated by lobbyists, particularly Murdoch, but also by all those who contribute to the tory party, such as the building industry. I believe that his major problem is not financial but trying to run a divided party. He is small-minded.
but if Germany don't fund the backsliders, then their currency won't be so outrageously undervalued for them, so they won't make as much money.I prefer a Germany committed to working with other countries.
I have voted for all three main parties. I have no particular belief in party politics. In fact I am a bit like an atheist wondering why believers in a particular religion think everything is wonderful in what they believe and evil in the others. No personal offence but I am stunned when a supposedly intelligent person says they believe in a god, and only less so when they say they always vote for a particular party.
Cameron is dominated by lobbyists, particularly Murdoch, but also by all those who contribute to the tory party, such as the building industry. I believe that his major problem is not financial but trying to run a divided party. He is small-minded.
If Germany bail out the poorer countries, they make it back with appreciation defying exports. If they don't bail them out then they save money in the short term, but lose some of the edge of the current currency value.
Clearly I am very surprised to read in the papers today that Osborne has managed to get our money ringfenced and "protected" against a Greek default.
Soooo utterly predictable.EU Big bad wolf. Cameron and co show they are standing up to them and winning so really you SHOULD vote yes to stay in the EU in 2017....
Soooo utterly predictable.EU Big bad wolf. Cameron and co show they are standing up to them and winning so really you SHOULD vote yes to stay in the EU in 2017....
AJS- said:
I'm sure that's true, especially about the over 50s. Greece was surely a very different place 50 years ago.
It can't help that so many productive aged people are studying stuff so long into their productive lives though.
FWIW I think this applies to the west in general, not just to Greece, though like debt they might be a front runner at it.
There were loads of greek students in the engineering faculty when I was there; I was told it was a popular way of avoiding being drafted for military service, although this was 20 years ago so it may have changed since.It can't help that so many productive aged people are studying stuff so long into their productive lives though.
FWIW I think this applies to the west in general, not just to Greece, though like debt they might be a front runner at it.
AJS- said:
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
Efbe said:
but if Germany don't fund the backsliders, then their currency won't be so outrageously undervalued for them, so they won't make as much money.
If Germany bail out the poorer countries, they make it back with appreciation defying exports. If they don't bail them out then they save money in the short term, but lose some of the edge of the current currency value.
The money we give out in overseas aid is one of our best investments. In essence, it is a bribe: buy our stuff or else we pull the plug. It doesn't always work, but that's normally because other countries pay more in aid. Yet many people, especially on these forums, want to stop it. I feel certain that there are similar people in Germany and if it starts to look as if they are throwing good money after bad - despite evidence to the contrary - then there will be pressure to cut and run.If Germany bail out the poorer countries, they make it back with appreciation defying exports. If they don't bail them out then they save money in the short term, but lose some of the edge of the current currency value.
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