Honest, Friendly, Salt of the Earth Traveller Fraud Probe

[gtdc]

Ganglandboss said:

At what point have I said our traveller friends should be subject to discrimination? My beef is they are protected from the rules and laws (which are set by a democratically elected government) that the 'settled population' have to obey, because some cretin of Cherie Blair's ilk has decided they are an ethnic group. I expect the law to be applied equally to all, regardless of whether you are black, white, Buddhist, Muslim or your daddy plays golf with the chief inspector.

EFA

[Oakey]

AndrewW-G said:

Conversely, you may want to read prior to suggesting the person who wrote it is at risk of embarrassing themselseves
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My post was essentially two parts;
Part 1 was pointing out that the legal process resulting in a judgement that classified travellers as a race, was not an example of a democratic process, it was a judicial process and therefore “miranda”’s comments about democracy were at best inappropriate.

Part2 was asking whether or not “she” agreed with the outcome of the judgement.

Neither part of my post was reliant for its content in any way on any of the details of the judgement.

One of the last lines of that judgement is rather telling:

" I doubt whether if the claim for breach of the Act is finally established, benefit rather than detriment will result to either side. "

[DonkeyApple]

Stuart said:

Ganglandboss said:

Yes, this particular ruling was an enormous 'fail'.

I was making precisely this point in my long post a couple of pages back; you, others, the majority of people on this thread perhaps, might think it wrong or a "fail," but it is case law. Which means that it is this which must be the yardstick by which we measure our actions, rather than the views of a limited number of PH members who care enough about such things to have an opinion. I can understand how frustrating this must be, but one of the points I've been making all along is that it is this which is governing our actions, rather than a high handed decision that you aren't in some way allowed to express your opinion on the subject here.

Stuart, the simple solution is to allow people to take full financial and legal responsibility for their own writings. Once people are solely responsible they usually self regulate quite happily or end up under Waterloo Bridge in a cardboard box.

Maybe, for those who demand total freedom of speech they could have a special tag on their postings which carry a formal legal statement that they are solely responsible for their actions and carry full contact details, including Google map links etc. Plus the details of their legal representitives.

Membership could be granted once they have lodged a bond with their lawyers and listed their assets?

I'm sure PH could make a nice turn on the comm for forcing them to take out specialist insurance in the event that they are deemed to have inufficient assets to finance any resulting suit?

[Stuart]

DonkeyApple said:

Stuart, the simple solution is to allow people to take full financial and legal responsibility for their own writings. Once people are solely responsible they usually self regulate quite happily or end up under Waterloo Bridge in a cardboard box.

Maybe, for those who demand total freedom of speech they could have a special tag on their postings which carry a formal legal statement that they are solely responsible for their actions and carry full contact details, including Google map links etc. Plus the details of their legal representitives.

Membership could be granted once they have lodged a bond with their lawyers and listed their assets?

I'm sure PH could make a nice turn on the comm for forcing them to take out specialist insurance in the event that they are deemed to have inufficient assets to finance any resulting suit?

Blimey. It's certainly an approach we haven't considered!

The reality is that the law won't give one fig about any of this, but the revenues from the 8 people who'd sign up would pay for the mods' Christmas party, and we'd certainly have a lot less to do day to day.

By jove, I think you might be onto something!

[Johnnytheboy]

It'd certainly raise the tone of the place by one means or the other.

We'd all need to be very well off, or very polite, or both.

[Oakey]

Stuart, when my brother created a thread to whine about me that, whilst containing some truths, was also full of bullst and lies, I complained and was told it wouldn't be deleted. I guess it didn't contain enough uses of the word '' for you to worry about any libel action?

[DonkeyApple]

It would turn PH into something akin to a BBC Sunday evening Victorian drama.

Disputes resolved by pistols at dawn?

Us Gingas are usually excellent shots (it's the genetically hones eyesight evolved through millenia of being preyed upon) and very good 'morning people' as we like to be back at home before the full heat of the sun makes life uncomfortable

[Stuart]

Oakey said:

Stuart, when my brother created a thread to whine about me that, whilst containing some truths, was also full of bullst and lies, I complained and was told it wouldn't be deleted. I guess it didn't contain enough uses of the word '' for you to worry about any libel action?

Oakey,

I don't actually remember this, which either means that I've got a terrible memory or it was another mod who dealt with it. Hopefully the latter, but I can't answer your question I'm afraid. If it was some time ago, then the chances are that under the same circumstances today it would be gone very quickly. We've certainly had to be more careful about such things as the site has got bigger.

[Oakey]

Stuart said:

Oakey,

I don't actually remember this, which either means that I've got a terrible memory or it was another mod who dealt with it. Hopefully the latter, but I can't answer your question I'm afraid. If it was some time ago, then the chances are that under the same circumstances today it would be gone very quickly. We've certainly had to be more careful about such things as the site has got bigger.

It was about 6 months ago. This was Garlick's response:

"I'm sorry I thought I had replied already.

This thread caused us as many issues as you I think. Website Feedback was kicking off and it was all a bit of a mess.

As the thread is still fresh in the memory of those who felt strongly about it, to delete would give the impression that we are trying to hide the incident altogether, and I fear it would only cause us further grief."

Now, had someone come on here spouting crap about any of the mods, you can guarantee it would have been removed almost immediately.

[pete a]

PaulHogan said:

Interesting advice from an American state regarding the race of Irish Travellers:

http://consumer.georgia.gov/portal/site/OCP/menuit...

That was very interesting reading, the below is the opinion of the Governors office of Georgia in the USA.

Irish Travelers Perpetuate a Tradition of Fraud

May 14, 2007

Around the time that schools let out, individuals known as Irish Travelers load up their pick-up trucks and take their show on the road. Sadly, their business is not a very entertaining one and can cost you way more than a ticket to the Big Top. These descendants of Irish immigrants live in nomadic clans and make their living by perpetrating home improvement fraud and selling substandard machinery at huge mark-ups.

While there are several communities of Irish travelers throughout the South, the largest is an enclave located just outside North Augusta, South Carolina. With the exception of their “marks”, Travelers have little contact with outsiders. Generally, in the spring, they spread out throughout the eastern seaboard and beyond.

Travelers go door-to-door, often targeting the elderly. They usually drive unmarked pick-up trucks with out-of-state plates, often from South Carolina. They are pavers, roofers, painters, repairmen who just happen to have left-over materials from a previous job, allowing them to offer huge discounts, but only if you act now. You will rarely receive a written contract from them, and if you do, the contact information will have only a toll-free number and a post office box, making it impossible to track down the conman when the homeowner discovers the inferior quality of the workmanship and materials.

If you need to make home improvements, the Governor’s Office of Consumer Affairs offers the following guidelines:

Whilst i am not endorsing their opinion or agreeing with it it does seem a slightly different view to some expressed on here.

[Jasandjules]

Pupp said:

Go on then, tell me all about the workings of the Admin Court

I am sure you are aware of the statistics pertaining to Judicial Review, cases brought, cases given permission etc to those successfully prosecuted. Notwithstanding your position as stated being that any case with merit gets permission.... And wins........

It is regrettable that a legal decision was made which appears to my mind to conflict the idea of race with lifestyle - to me race is more a differentiation based upon genes rather than behaviour/attitudes/beliefs. I wonder what evidence was put forth in this respect too. Not to mention the state of Libel law in the UK which impinges all too much on free speech in my view, there is always a balance to be struck and I believe that currently the law is wrong and I hope that it will change.

[AndrewW-G]

Jasandjules said:

It is regrettable that a legal decision was made which appears to my mind to conflict the idea of race with lifestyle

Oxford Dictionary on the definition of Race said:

noun

each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics : people of all races, colours, and creeds

[mass noun] the fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.

Biologya population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies : people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct

(in non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures: a member of the human race, the race of birds

literary a group of people descended from a common ancestor:a prince of the race of Solomon

[mass noun] archaic ancestry:two coursers of ethereal raceAlthough ideas of race are centuries old, it was not until the 19th century that attempts to systematize racial divisions were made . Ideas of supposed racial superiority and social Darwinism reached their culmination in Nazi ideology of the 1930s and gave pseudoscientific justification to policies and attitudes of discrimination, exploitation, slavery, and extermination. Theories of race asserting a link between racial type and intelligence are now discredited. Scientifically it is accepted as obvious that there are subdivisions of the human species, but it is also clear that genetic variation between individuals of the same race can be as great as that between members of different races

[theconrodkid]

just google "sam vinden" says it all really

[Pupp]

Jasandjules said:

I am sure you are aware of the statistics pertaining to Judicial Review, cases brought, cases given permission etc to those successfully prosecuted. Notwithstanding your position as stated being that any case with merit gets permission.... And wins........

Erm, no, that wasn't my position. It was a bit more specific than that but you carry on.
And yep, I'm reasonably familiar with the percentages in JR cases

[Jasandjules]

Pupp said:

Erm, no, that wasn't my position. It was a bit more specific than that but you carry on.
And yep, I'm reasonably familiar with the percentages in JR cases

Well, as I understood it, you posited that idea that if someone had made a decision which was to "your"* detriment you could bring a JR and win.

Whereas my view is that even if one has standing, has the law firmly on your side (we could say by wrongly taking a matter into account which I think is where you were coming from as well, but I can't recall for certain), and brings a JR within 12 minutes (i.e. quickly enough to preclude a refusal to grant permission on the basis of timeliness), you still are not 100% going to win. It could be as high as 80% BUT litigation is, as you allude to being fully aware, full of serious pitfalls and errors, JR is not exceptional in this.....

• simplification but still.

Andrew, not sure if your point is agreeing with me or not but I take what is perhaps an overly simplistic view that there must be physical characteristics to determine a race. I am old fashioned like that because I think that if we take behaviour into account then where do we stop - football holigans exhibit behavioural patterns, but they are not a race?!!?

[Johnnytheboy]

theconrodkid said:

just google "sam vinden" says it all really

I did, and got a pretty good impression from what I could see of every local news site link. But every single article that I clicked on had been removed.

[Oakey]

Johnnytheboy said:

I did, and got a pretty good impression from what I could see of every local news site link. But every single article that I clicked on had been removed.

The Google cache versions are there. Pleasant fellow.

[Johnnytheboy]

Oakey said:

Johnnytheboy said:

I did, and got a pretty good impression from what I could see of every local news site link. But every single article that I clicked on had been removed.

The Google cache versions are there. Pleasant fellow.

Oh I've never loooked at them before. I can only assume they were all removed because of more recent events.

[Willy Nilly]

PaulHogan said:

Interesting advice from an American state regarding the race of Irish Travellers:

http://consumer.georgia.gov/portal/site/OCP/menuit...

They don't seem to like daags

Further to my earlier post about the various visits from our happy go lucky travelling friends, I recall a few other encounters with them. They seem very keen on the health of wild life, particularly smallish brown mammals. A few years ago they had given one small mammal quite a checking over. After following it at a safe distance around a freshly planted field of potatoes, I can only assume they thought that its cardio vascular system was in fine fettle and left it be until last year when they gave it the once over when the same field was planted with wheat.

They also have quite an interest in wheat agronomy. Only last year we had on charitable, happy chappy walking his lurcher daag through our wheat. He was obviously checking to see how the pre emergence sprays had worked and was looking for over winter aphids while he was there. It was considerate of him to drive down the private road that dissects the field, that way he didn't wear out public tarmac or block a public road by parking on it.

[AndrewW-G]

Jasandjules said:

Andrew, not sure if your point is agreeing with me or not but I take what is perhaps an overly simplistic view that there must be physical characteristics to determine a race. I am old fashioned like that because I think that if we take behaviour into account then where do we stop - football holigans exhibit behavioural patterns, but they are not a race?!!?

Yep, I agree with you, IMHO a race is a subset of a species that has a common genetic link i.e. black Africans have similar physical traits, so therefore they are a race, same goes for pale skinned gingers from Scotland . . . .. . Making a lifestyle choice does not change a person’s race, otherwise Jedis, Goths, Vegans, Gays, cyclists, Everton supporters etc etc etc would all belong to not only their genetic race, but also their lifestyle choice race.

This sort of nonsense serves no one and will only further the dilution of genuine racial discrimination claims that started with labour (most notoriously when the cretinous winky called a voter asking a question a bigot) enabling the victim mentality of the most feckless members of society