Tory voters. Are you embarassed yet?

[nyxster]

to qualify these statements

i was brought up in the era of thatcher, when i left school with no job prospects i signed on to the first enterprise allowance scheme, got 6 weeks mentoring from a bunch of business people on how to write a business plan, business marketing and how to be a decent SME. then i set off with my 36 quid a week enterprise allowance that allowed me to eat while i started my first business. I didn't sit around on the dole watching jeremy kyle on my flat panel TV expecting a grand a week job or I wouldn't leave the house.

During the start of the credit crunch when our business failed, i paid my debts off and sat at home and didn't claim benefits, lived within my means and got myself back on my feet.

So obviously i consider that there is two ways to deal with the disadvantaged - give them the means to make their own way in the world (enterprise allowance scheme, training, apprenticeships etc) and removing the safety net that allows them to do it as a lifestyle choice - the very darwinian effect of 'adapt or die' is the best way to ensure everyone is productive and thinks about a rainy day not just tonights domino's order. if you speak to your grandparents they suffered much greater hardships as working class people than the current benefits classes suffer despite them telling us how awful their cosseted benefit funded lives are.

Therefore to answer your questions:

Selling council houses was a good idea, the reality of social housing is 3 generation council house rats living in those houses and making no attempt to fund their own life and move on, then genuine cases such as a working family with 2 kids who paid taxes for 20 years, then one gets sick or disabled and loses the breadwinner income, mortgage forecloses and they end up on the streets or in a B&B because the housing waiting list is as long as your arm and nobody ever gives up their council house - so either get rid of social housing (why should taxpayers subsidise other peoples housing?) - its one thing to provide a short term safety net to keep vunerable people from being homeless and quite another to subsidise an entire class to live in large houses at the expense of everyone else who has to pay market rate.

The government should better invest in key worker housing to provide for police, fire, nurses, social workers etc since by providing discounted housing especially in the SE they don't have to pay bigger wages to fund the overheated private housing sector and allow people to take social vocations without bloating the public sector budget.

Providing legions of housing for people who are not in genuine need since they contribute nothing but paying their benefits towards sky subscriptions and kylie's ballet lessons is not efficient use of social capital - if they are male and homeless under 35 they could sign up for the army, go and work on a oil rig or volunteer to work for UNICEF in africa, all of which provide housing etc.

same with other state owned entitys - British leyland was a disaster in public ownership since as we now see public sector workers seem to believe they have a entitlement to fixed wage growth, working conditions and pensions that are out of whack with the private sector simply because they belong to entities that do not have to make a profit - businesses can tell their employees they don't get a wage increase when the company is losing money, but here we are in a situation where countries are losing so much money if they were PLC's they would be bankrupt yet the employees expect them to carry on regardless.

More socialism and state interferance is not going to solve this problem, only free enterprise and encouraging investment dosed with a bit of asian style mercantilism protectionist economics to bring down our costs.

If we take Dubai as a case in point.

Establish 4-5 cities such as Newcastle as key growth zones, zone a big chunk of business parks for high growth knowledge based businesses like IT, Media, Finance etc - then offer those companies inside those FTZ's a 20 year tax break and employees a tax break too. the companies will ramp employment, people will relocate there to get the tax breaks and the money they spend in the local economy will more than offset the loss in corporate tax reciepts and income tax income simply because those companies would just do a double dutch and pipeline the same revenues via ireland to the caymans and dodge the tax anyway.

by encouraging business growth (giving them the incentive to do so in areas like high tech manufacturing for guys like intel) that generate substantial high wage jobs, that bring wealthy professionals in spending money on local resteraunts, range rover sport merchants, lap dancers et al then the spend boosts the lower end economy and increases lower skilled jobs - removing the social safety net forces the unskilled to take such mc'jobs or starve.

it works out pretty well in Hong Kong, Dubai et al - of course its not socially pretty for the lazy scrotes who don't want to work for less than 1K or do a mcjob, but whoever said the majority had some obligation to take care of the people who don't want to contribute?

if people want a safety net its called saving for a rainy day and private insurance you pay for, not expecting 10 people to work 60 hours a week to pay your housing benefits and sky sports subscription.

[B Huey]

ewenm said:

How old are you B Huey?

Old enough to remember what an evil bh Thatcher was.

[Einion Yrth]

B Huey said:

ewenm said:

How old are you B Huey?

Old enough to remember what an evil bh Thatcher was.

[ewenm]

B Huey said:

Old enough to remember what an evil bh Thatcher was.

I've never met her <shrug> As to her government's policies, I was a child at the time and didn't have Tory-voting parents and yet still didn't come away with the impression she was evil.

[pacman1]

^ In one EY.

Trolls..

..just don't know how to behave.

Shame really, this thread could have been an interesting debate.

Edited by pacman1 on Friday 14th October 21:11

[turbobloke]

ewenm said:

B Huey said:

Old enough to remember what an evil bh Thatcher was.

I've never met her <shrug> As to her government's policies, I was a child at the time and didn't have Tory-voting parents and yet still didn't come away with the impression she was evil.

Labour years before or since Thatcher have had very little if any benefit but have nearly bankrupted the country twice.

That's not evil either, it's incompetence on top of the usual empty leftist ideology.

Edited by turbobloke on Friday 14th October 21:22

[M3333]

Puggit said:

They've got worse than a shambles do deal with - thanks to Labour (who leave the economy and countries in tatters EVERY TIME)

I was pondering this today. Genuine question, imagine it is 1997 and David Cameron has entered Downing street as PM with a huge majority and a decent stable economy, just before a massive worldwide boom. Where would we be today? Better or worse than the current state socially and economically?

I for one feel this country would be in a much much much better state than the crazy socialists left is after a 13 year money spunkfest. Memories are short and those who wont accept the deep dire economic situation we are in are not being very realistic.

Edited by M3333 on Friday 14th October 21:19

[Crafty_]

DieselGriff said:

UKIP I have read the manifesto and all seems good to me, much better than CMD's "Let's give loads of money to my FIL" policy

Whilst I agree with much they say I'm not totally convinced they'd actually be capable of running the country and pulling off all they claim.
I do think Cameron needs to look at Europe and the common opinion of the great unwashed (i.e. its pants).
I do think some sort of trade agreement/charter would be a good idea though.

I find it quite laughable that Thatcher is yet again bring bought into the argument. I'd love to know what relevance she has to this government / todays politics OP ?
Like ewenm I was a kid when she was in power and my parents didn't vote tory. From watching/reading stuff about the strikes etc I think (maybe naively) she dragged the country kicking and screaming out of the drab and dire 70s.

[Mojocvh]

The Hypno-Toad said:

If Labour was still in power we would be staring down the barrel of Greek like collapse

Err, WE ARE.

But no doubt in your own particular version of Chipping Norton the blinkers are firmly attached.

Question, like it or not, what is our largest trading partner? And when they have no money to buy "our" goods?

[MartyPubes]

This place sometimes...

[eldar]

B Huey said:

Old enough to remember what an evil bh Thatcher was.

fk me she was 86 this week. And you blame her, rather than than nice Mr. Brown, who put an end to boom and bust, or any other of the people who caused the fk up.

You and you ilk are responsible for the state we're in, living in the past, blaming everyone else for you inadequacies, and expecting a free ride out of the hole you dug. I fart in your general direction.

[king arthur]

Mojocvh said:

Err, WE ARE.

But no doubt in your own particular version of Chipping Norton the blinkers are firmly attached.

Question, like it or not, what is our largest trading partner? And when they have no money to buy "our" goods?

That would be the USA wouldn't it? I believe we have a growing trade surplus with them, in contrast to the growing deficit we have with the EU.

[smithsi]

eldar said:

fk me she was 86 this week. And you blame her, rather than than nice Mr. Brown, who put an end to boom and bust, or any other of the people who caused the fk up.

You and you ilk are responsible for the state we're in, living in the past, blaming everyone else for you inadequacies, and expecting a free ride out of the hole you dug. I fart in your general direction.

Well said, the unions were holding the country to ransom (and employers). Thatcher govt brought in legislation regarding collective agreements, which tipped the balance back to a more balanced status quo. For example, wildcat strikes were banned. Unions hated that.

If Thatcher hadn't fought the unions and are interests in Europe, we would be a lot worse off than now.

[greygoose]

M3333 said:

I was pondering this today. Genuine question, imagine it is 1997 and David Cameron has entered Downing street as PM with a huge majority and a decent stable economy, just before a massive worldwide boom. Where would we be today? Better or worse than the current state socially and economically?

I for one feel this country would be in a much much much better state than the crazy socialists left is after a 13 year money spunkfest. Memories are short and those who wont accept the deep dire economic situation we are in are not being very realistic.

Edited by M3333 on Friday 14th October 21:19

I think any politician can ruin a country given enough time, he seems just as much of a showman as Blair and would probably have joined in the same misguided wars.

[eldar]

greygoose said:

I think any politician can ruin a country given enough time, he seems just as much of a showman as Blair and would probably have joined in the same misguided wars.

I'd like to think he wouldn't have pissed the boom up the wall by employing a million public sector employees to check your speed/dustbins/insulation/wiring colour/sexual preferences/racial origin/foreskin presence/global warming beliefs.

Just a few, select, wars we could actually win. Invade the Shetlands, not Afghanistan...

[greygoose]

eldar said:

Just a few, select, wars we could actually win. Invade the Shetlands,

Was the Falklands a warm up for that then

[johnfm]

Not this st again...

[NoNeed]

I would not be embarassed to have voted for the debt party headed by mr millipede, I would be fking ashamed.

http://hfconservatives.typepad.com/residents_first...


But 13 years of labour failure
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2010/05/13-...

We don't want to go back to that do we?

From the blog 13 years of labour failure.


1. On economic growth

Longest and deepest recession. Gordon Brown has given Britain the longest and deepest recession on record (ONS, Time Series ABMI). Britain has had the longest recession in the G20 with six consecutive quarters of negative growth – more than any other major economy (Principal Global Indicators).

Record decline in manufacturing. Between 1997 Q2 and 2009 Q3, manufacturing as a share of GDP declined by 9.3 percentage points, from 20.7 per cent of GDP to 11.4 per cent of GDP – the fastest decline under any government since records began in 1980 (ONS Time Series QTPI & QVYR).


2. On national debt

Largest budget deficit. In 2010, the UK is expected to have the largest budget deficit of any major economy at 11.4 per cent of GDP (IMF, World Economic Outlook Database).

National debt has doubled – and is set to double again. Gordon Brown has doubled the national debt. In fact, on Labour’s own figures, by 2014-15 Gordon Brown would have quadrupled the national debt compared to 1997 (HM Treasury, Public Finances Databank, Table A7).


3. On jobs

Record economic inactivity. 8.16 million working age people are classed as economically inactive – the highest number since records began in 1971 (ONS, Labour Market Statistics, April 2010).

Youth unemployment rising again. Under Labour, youth unemployment reached a record high, and now it is rising again. One in five young people is unable to find a job (ONS, Labour Market Statistics, April 2010).


4. On government waste

Billions spent on quangos. There are now 1,148 quangos which employ 534,000 staff and cost the taxpayer £90 billion (Taxpayers Alliance, ACA to YJB: A Guide to the UK’s Semi-Autonomous Public Bodies, 26 October 2009).

NHS computer system has doubled in cost. The new NHS computer system was originally intended to cost £6.2 billion but costs have now doubled to over £13 billion (Public Accounts Committee, The National Programme for IT in the NHS, March 2007; National Audit Office, The National Programme for IT in the NHS: Progress since 2006, 16 May 2008).


5. On the NHS

More deaths from hospital infections than road accidents. There have been almost 44,000 deaths from MRSA and Clostridium difficile under Labour (ONS, 19 August 2009; Hansard, 10 September 2008, Col.1882WA). Hospital-acquired infections now kill more than three times as many people as are killed on the roads every year (Department for Transport, Road Casualties in Great Britain 2008, 24 September 2009).

Number of managers growing faster than nurses. The number of managers in the NHS is increasing more than five times as fast as the number of nurses (NHS workforce statistics, 25 March 2010).

Cancer death rates some of the worst in Europe. There are still more deaths from cancer in the UK than in most other European countries. Germany, for example, has almost 10 per cent fewer deaths from cancer than we do. And the gap between the number of deaths from cancer in Europe and the UK has progressively widened since 1997 (OECD Health Data 2009).



6. On schools

School standards falling. The UK has fallen down the world league tables in English, maths and science. Since the first OECD comparative study on education was conducted in 2001, the UK has fallen from 8th to 24th place in maths. In reading, the UK has fallen from 7th to 17th place, and in science from 4th to 14th place. We are now below countries like Liechtenstein and Estonia (OECD, Programme for International Student Assessment, December 2007).

Truancy and poor discipline. Every school day, over 1,000 pupils are excluded for abuse and assault and 67,000 pupils play truant (DCSF, Permanent and Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools in England 2007/08, 30 July 2009; DCSF, Pupil Absence from Schools in England, including pupil characteristics, 21 April 2009).


7. On crime

Over 100 serious knife crimes a day. In 2008-09, there were 38,082 serious offences involving a knife – including homicide, attempted murder and robbery – equivalent to more than 100 a day (Home Office, Crime in England and Wales 2008-9, 21 January 2010, Revised Table 3.10).

Violence against the person increased by 44 per cent. Recorded levels of violence against the person increased by 44 per cent between 1998-99 and 2008-09. These figures take account of changing recording practices over the period so the comparison is statistically valid (House of Commons Library Note, February 2010).

80,000 prisoners released early. Figures released last week show that between June 2007 and April 2010, 81,578 prisoners were released early on Labour’s controversial ‘end of custody licence’ scheme (Ministry of Justice, End of Custody Licence releases and recalls, 30 April 2010).


8. On pensioners

2 million pensioners in poverty. There are 2 million pensioners in poverty today (DWP, Households Below Average Income 2007-08, May 2009, table 6.3tr, measured after housing costs). This is a rise of 100,000 since the last election.

Devastating tax on pensions. One of Gordon Brown’s first acts on becoming Chancellor in 1997 was to impose a tax on pensions of £5 billion a year. Over 100,000 occupational pension schemes have been wound up or have begun the process of winding up since Labour took office in 1997 (Hansard, 11 November 2009, Col. 570W).


9. On poverty

Inequality growing. The income of the poorest 20 per cent of households has been falling for the past three years and is now £7 a week lower in real terms than in 2004-05. Over the same period, the richest 20 per cent of households have seen their incomes grow in real terms by £30 a week (DWP, Households Below Average Income 2007/08 Full Report, 7 May 2009, p.20, table 2.1ts).

Child poverty rising. Child poverty has risen for the third year in a row (DWP, Households Below Average Income First Release, 7 May 2009, p.1). There are now four million children living in poverty.

Doubled the tax rate for some of the poorest. In the 2007 Budget, Labour scrapped the 10p tax rate, doubling the rate for some of the poorest to 20p. The Treasury estimated that 5.3 million households lost from the April 2008 changes announced in the 2007 Budget (Hansard, 18 October 2007, Col. 1266 WA). While the IFS said that, even after compensation, there were still 0.9 million people worse off (IFS Briefing Note 77, ‘The 10% tax rate: where next?’).


10. On the Armed Forces

Misleading over defence spending. On 10 March 2010, Gordon Brown claimed that ‘the defence budget has been rising every year since 1997’ (Hansard, 10 March 2010, col. 291). A week later, on 17 March, he admitted ‘I do accept that in one or two years defence expenditure did not rise in real terms’ (Hansard, 17 March 2010, col. 869). Figures from the Ministry of Defence show that the defence budget fell year-on-year in real terms on four occasions in 1997 – in 1998, 1999, 2002 and 2007 (Figures provided by the Ministry of Defence for Channel 4 Factcheck, 10 March 2010).

Helicopter budget cut. In 2004, the MoD cut the 10-year projected helicopter budget by £1.4 billion, and cut annual helicopter expenditure by 75 per cent from 2001 to 2007 (House of Commons library; Hansard, 3 June 2009, col. 552WA). Lord Guthrie, former Chief of the Defence Staff, said ‘I have no doubt whatever that, with additional helicopters, some of the lives that have been lost would have been saved’ (Lords Hansard, 6 November 2009, col. 524).


11. On sleaze

Mandelson resigns – twice. First, for accepting a soft loan to buy a house in London, despite a conflict of interest arising as a result of Mandelson’s appointment as Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in 1998. The second time, for helping the controversial Indian tycoon, Mr Srichand Hinduja, to secure British citizenship. Hinduja had pledged £1 million to the Millennium Dome project, with which Mandelson was closely associated (BBC News Online, 24 January 2001; BBC News Online, 23 December 2008).

Bernie Ecclestone and Formula One. In 1997, Labour’s manifesto pledged to ban tobacco advertising. But following a secret £1 million donation to the Labour Party from Bernie Ecclestone, Labour changed its policy (BBC News Online, 22 September 2000).

David Blunkett resigns – twice. First, for fast-tracking a claim for indefinite leave to remain for his lover’s nanny. For the second time, for failing to clear his appointment with DNA Bioscience, a company that was bidding for government work, with the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments (BBC News Online, 2 November 2005).


12. On spin and feuds

Jo Moore. Jo Moore, Stephen Byers’s special adviser, sent a memo on 11 September 2001, suggesting it would be a good time to ‘bury’ controversial stories (BBC News Online, 10 October 2001).

‘Forces of hell’ unleashed on Darling. Alistair Darling admitted that Gordon Brown and Number 10, including Charlie Whelan and Damian McBride, had unleashed the ‘forces of hell’ against him after conceding that the UK economy was in a poor state (Sky News, 22 February 2010). Andrew Rawnsley’s book described how: ‘Damian McBride, Brown’s spin doctor, was also spreading poison against Darling. “He told every journalist who had access to a pencil that Alistair’s interview was a disaster. There was the most absolutely vicious briefing against him,”’ (The End of the Party, Andrew Rawnsley; reported in The Observer, 21 February 2010).

Charlie Whelan forced to resign over briefing against Mandelson. Charlie Whelan was forced to resign as Gordon Brown’s press secretary after it was suggested that he was responsible for leaking the information that led to Peter Mandelson’s first resignation from Government (BBC News Online, 4 January 1999)

Damian McBride conceived false smears against opponents. Deliberate smears against senior Conservatives were planned by Gordon Brown’s spin doctor, Damian McBride, with Derek Draper, a former adviser to Peter Mandelson. Charlie Whelan was also copied in to these planning emails (The Guardian, 29 April 2009).


13. On character

Bottled the election. After months of walking his troops up the hill – appointing a general election co-ordinator, beginning to write a manifesto, hiring an advertising agency – Brown bottled it. On 6 October, after months of dithering, he finally announced that there would not be a general election in 2007 (Speech at Special Labour Party Conference, 24 June 2007; The Times, 1 August 2007; Labour Party Press Release, 13 September 2007; and BBC Online News, 6 October 2007).

Calling Gillian Duffy a ‘bigot’. At a walkabout in Rochdale last Wednesday, after speaking to a pensioner called Gillian Duffy, Gordon Brown was recorded telling an aide in his car: ‘That was a disaster - they should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that? It's just ridiculous.’ When asked what she had said, he replied: ‘Ugh everything! She's just a sort of bigoted woman that said she used to be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous. I don't know why Sue brought her up towards me’ (Gallery News, 28 April 2010).

[Ozzie Osmond]

nyxster said:

Selling council houses was a good idea

The government should better invest in key worker housing to provide for police, fire, nurses, social workers etc

That sounds bonkers to me. If you cut the pay of state sector workers and make them live in state housing you will simply reinforce the whole problem that's corroding our economy.

As I've said elsewhere the issue isn't one of politics but of common sense. I don't recall any socialist ideology saying the feckless should be paid to do nothing and casually pregnant teenagers given nice council houses.

[essexplumber]

I don't understand this class hatred thing. Toff's? So because someone is fortunate enough to have a wealthy background and have been privately educated that immediately excludes them from being able to govern? What bullst!

Is it just being well spoken and holidaying in Tuscany that the left take umbridge with?