Dirty tricks in the army on 18 June of all days

[BruceV8]

eccles said:

This started off with an assertion that modern forces pay was worse than an equivalent civilian job, that may have been the case some years ago, but for many it's not the case today. Hence many servicemen when they get out these days find themselves having a pay cut for a similar job.
As for there being no difference between the services for similar trades...... well my experience tells me otherwise!

I take your point about pay - to an extent. Its true that a lot of servicemen do take a pay drop on leaving - but they don't go to a similar job, unless they get into the PMC/PSC/MS sector in which case they get a significant pay rise. A civilian tradesman does his trade work. A military tradesman does that and has his military duties - with all the physical hardship and risk (and indeed reward) that that entails. Which is why someone who drives a truck across Afghanistan every day - to take a simple example - might earn more than someone who drives one up and down the M40. Although they often don't.

Your experience and mine are clearly different. My experience also tells me that a lot of people interpret evidence to fit their own preconceived notions. I've met some pretty dense blokes in the army, I'll admit, but I've also had equally dense RAF chaps who trot out the mantra "We're more intelligent than the army". Someone must drum this into them becasue they say it a lot. In my experience they especially like to say it when complaining about having to exist in the same conditions as the army or when their army equivalents are promoted faster than them. Must make them feel better.

And no, FSgt is not equivalent to WO2. Thats another old favourite!

[Derek Smith]

eccles said:

Derek Smith said:

eccles said:

Army pay for someone who wants to be a Grunt isn't too bad. It's probably more than they'd be earning in any job they could get in civvy street for their level of intelligence (sorry if this sounds snobby).
These days forces pay is a whole magnitude better than many equivalent civilian jobs once you get a skill.

Leaving your comment on intelligence to one side - I've worked with ex-Army and I have to say that your experience differs from mine - I would point out that on an hourly basis the pay is dreadful, below minimum wage. It doesn't take an awful lot of working out.

I work with Army on a daily basis and my experience differs from your. It doesn't take a lot of working out.

My point, sorry if it wasn't clear, about working out was down to hourly rate. If you take away an operational soldier's free time from the day you end up with a fair few hours, so many in fact that there is no equivalent job for civilians. Hence the exclusion in the minimum wage legislation for soldiers. The government obvioulsy thought they would get too much money.

Further, intellignce and pay do not always go hand in hand.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'whole magnitude better' but I've often found that if a person is prepared to work hard they can be very well remunerated. I've completed enquiries on self employed plumbers, builders, electricians and plasterers, all of whom earned comfortably more than I did as a police officer of above average intelligence. I've also got a friend who is now a bus driver whom I consider more intelligent than I.

[eccles]

BruceV8 said:

eccles said:

This started off with an assertion that modern forces pay was worse than an equivalent civilian job, that may have been the case some years ago, but for many it's not the case today. Hence many servicemen when they get out these days find themselves having a pay cut for a similar job.
As for there being no difference between the services for similar trades...... well my experience tells me otherwise!

I take your point about pay - to an extent. Its true that a lot of servicemen do take a pay drop on leaving - but they don't go to a similar job, unless they get into the PMC/PSC/MS sector in which case they get a significant pay rise. A civilian tradesman does his trade work. A military tradesman does that and has his military duties - with all the physical hardship and risk (and indeed reward) that that entails. Which is why someone who drives a truck across Afghanistan every day - to take a simple example - might earn more than someone who drives one up and down the M40. Although they often don't.

Your experience and mine are clearly different. My experience also tells me that a lot of people interpret evidence to fit their own preconceived notions. I've met some pretty dense blokes in the army, I'll admit, but I've also had equally dense RAF chaps who trot out the mantra "We're more intelligent than the army". Someone must drum this into them becasue they say it a lot. In my experience they especially like to say it when complaining about having to exist in the same conditions as the army or when their army equivalents are promoted faster than them. Must make them feel better.

And no, FSgt is not equivalent to WO2. Thats another old favourite!

You seem to be implying I'm an RAF engineer with a chip on his shoulder about standards in the Army. Whilst I am ex RAF that was many years ago, and I've been a civilian many time longer than I was in the RAF.
I now work with Army on a daily basis and come into contact with technical, and non technical blokes and many of my colleagues who are not ex forces have a similar opinion to me.
I agree totally that there are many intelligent blokes in all the forces, also like anywhere any of the forces can have idiots. I'm talking about general levels based on my experience, simple as that, no chips on my shoulder. (If anything you seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder )

[BruceV8]

Yes I did make the assumption that you were still serving, which flavoured my responses somewhat but my points still stand. As Derek points out there are a lot of people in civilian life who aren't the brightest or the best educated but who are able to earn good money, either by gaining a skill, doing something that most people aren't willing to do or simply working hard. Or a combination of all three.

It would be interesting to see a study on IQ levels, or whatever measure would be most appropriate, with samples taken across all three services and then compared to a similar sample from civilian life.

My last two sentences weren't directed at you, they were just a general observation with a bit of tongue in cheek.

Besides, I have got a chip on my shoulder.

Edited by BruceV8 on Thursday 21st June 09:04