Post EU renegotiation poll, have opinions changed?
Poll: Post EU renegotiation poll, have opinions changed?
Total Members Polled: 377
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
Ironically, I was someone who wanted the ability to vote for staying IN a reformed EU, I really hoped the member states would see this as the best opportunity for a long time, to get the EU onto an honest, fair footing, which would allow it to continue.
Unfortunately having looked as far as I can, at the way we came into the thing, and the way it has been run since our joining, my naïve hopes for something better (not just for the UK but for the whole EU) have been swept away like smoke in a gale.
It seems the majority of the member states are happier keeping the corrupt, unfair, system that exists now in place. If we vote IN, no one can complain at what happens to the UK next, other than those who voted to try getting us out of the whole stinking mess.
Interesting viewpoint, thank you.Unfortunately having looked as far as I can, at the way we came into the thing, and the way it has been run since our joining, my naïve hopes for something better (not just for the UK but for the whole EU) have been swept away like smoke in a gale.
It seems the majority of the member states are happier keeping the corrupt, unfair, system that exists now in place. If we vote IN, no one can complain at what happens to the UK next, other than those who voted to try getting us out of the whole stinking mess.
Don said:
Interesting. Once again PH is not a barometer of public opinion.
i tend to agree with this.however, it would be interesting if someone could find any internet forum where the opposite voting intention is shown . i am a member of a couple of sea angling forums , a fairly different demographic (though a high number of anglers from all disciplines are also motoring/motorsport enthusiasts) that appear to be 50/50 left or right leaning,yet a similar voting intention is shown in polls.maybe a yoghurt knitting forum is where all the pro remain people are ?
The daft thing is that you could easily make credible argument to pay in work benefits and to pay child care regardless of where the children are.
UK Nationals benefit from in-work benefits across the EU and likely to a greater extent than for other benefits as we tend to stay here unless we move abroad....for work.
The child benefit thing makes some sense in that restricting the benefit incentivises workers to bring their families and children across, which costs far more than the cost of the benefit.
I doubt many eurosceptics would care one way or the other about either of these issues and they're certainly not a significant factor in a decision. Pointless.
UK Nationals benefit from in-work benefits across the EU and likely to a greater extent than for other benefits as we tend to stay here unless we move abroad....for work.
The child benefit thing makes some sense in that restricting the benefit incentivises workers to bring their families and children across, which costs far more than the cost of the benefit.
I doubt many eurosceptics would care one way or the other about either of these issues and they're certainly not a significant factor in a decision. Pointless.
CAPP0 said:
Why can the rules not be set, across all benefits, to state that if you choose to live elsewhere in the EU than your country of nationality, i.e. the country issuing your passport, you will only be entitled to the benefit payable in your country of nationality? Thus, if you are, say, Romanian and you decide to live in the UK, you will get 30p/week child benefit rather than £30/week? This should apply across all forms of benefit. It's then a simple economic choice for the migrant (much as it is now, but for other reasons!).
Because you could move to Bucharest, claim UK levels of benefits off the Romanian tax payer at levels way above those available to the locals.jurbie said:
I do wonder in amongst all the scaremongering of an exit what the EU response will be if we vote to stay in? An odd question perhaps but will we be welcomed like a prodigal son back into the arms of our european brethren, or will we instead get a few years on the EU naughty step as an example to other unruly states not to question the authority of the EU?
I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
They would treat us like the defeated nation we had shown ourselves to be. Our puppet governments would continue to enact the orders they were given.I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
Beati Dogu said:
jurbie said:
I do wonder in amongst all the scaremongering of an exit what the EU response will be if we vote to stay in? An odd question perhaps but will we be welcomed like a prodigal son back into the arms of our european brethren, or will we instead get a few years on the EU naughty step as an example to other unruly states not to question the authority of the EU?
I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
They would treat us like the defeated nation we had shown ourselves to be. Our puppet governments would continue to enact the orders they were given.I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
wc98 said:
Don said:
Interesting. Once again PH is not a barometer of public opinion.
i tend to agree with this.however, it would be interesting if someone could find any internet forum where the opposite voting intention is shown . i am a member of a couple of sea angling forums , a fairly different demographic (though a high number of anglers from all disciplines are also motoring/motorsport enthusiasts) that appear to be 50/50 left or right leaning,yet a similar voting intention is shown in polls.maybe a yoghurt knitting forum is where all the pro remain people are ?
What concerns me is that when I post anti-EU stuff in these threads, I'm never shouted down about being ignorant.
I really wish someone could convince me that if I vote out, I'll be making an awful mistake. Everywhere I turn, people just say, "Do your research." Not f
king helpful. I could equally reply the same to them!
Edit: heard another one, "It's more complicated than that."
I really wish someone could convince me that if I vote out, I'll be making an awful mistake. Everywhere I turn, people just say, "Do your research." Not f
king helpful. I could equally reply the same to them!Edit: heard another one, "It's more complicated than that."
Edited by Hoofy on Monday 22 February 09:46
Don said:
Interesting. Once again PH is not a barometer of public opinion. But as an indication my view on how this will turn out is being borne out here, at least.
I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
Not this PHer he couldn't, anyway. No 'deal' that means Britain remains a subordinate entity of a political union is going to answer my objection to that state of affairs. I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
Reading through a lot of the comments on here and elsewhere drives home to me what a massive swindle this whole thing has always been.
This was never a trading arrangement that got out of hand or some NGO whose remit grew beyond its design. It was always about building a nation called Europe with traditional nation states subsumed into it. This was never even really a secret on the continent, and Edward Heath, years after the deal was done, admitted that he knew as much.
It was never really going to be a democratic nation except in the most superficial sense. It was always a corporatists political union.
powerstroke said:
Beati Dogu said:
jurbie said:
I do wonder in amongst all the scaremongering of an exit what the EU response will be if we vote to stay in? An odd question perhaps but will we be welcomed like a prodigal son back into the arms of our european brethren, or will we instead get a few years on the EU naughty step as an example to other unruly states not to question the authority of the EU?
I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
They would treat us like the defeated nation we had shown ourselves to be. Our puppet governments would continue to enact the orders they were given.I have a feeling that having gone this far down the road staying in may actually prove to be a worse option. At least a trade war hurts both parties but with us committed to staying for several more decades the EU will be in a fine position to ensure we and others don't rock the boat any more.
I see what you did there
Don said:
Interesting. Once again PH is not a barometer of public opinion. But as an indication my view on how this will turn out is being borne out here, at least.
I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
Indeed.I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
The views on PH forums are so far out of touch it doesn't even bare thinking about. A vocal clique of Little Englanders seem to fester here. I well remember one of the "how will you vote at the GE?" polls in which something like 80% of voters on PH who could be arsed to vote in the poll supported UKIP. Many said that the Kippers would hold the balance of power.
Remind me again, how many new UKIP MPs were returned at the last General Election?
In other words, just because a bunch of gobby right wingers state something as fact doesn't necessarily make it so.
zygalski said:
Indeed.
The views on PH forums are so far out of touch it doesn't even bare thinking about. A vocal clique of Little Englanders seem to fester here. I well remember one of the "how will you vote at the GE?" polls in which something like 80% of voters on PH who could be arsed to vote in the poll supported UKIP. Many said that the Kippers would hold the balance of power.
Remind me again, how many new UKIP MPs were returned at the last General Election?
In other words, just because a bunch of gobby right wingers state something as fact doesn't necessarily make it so.
yes, because 4 million votes is insignificant isn't it?The views on PH forums are so far out of touch it doesn't even bare thinking about. A vocal clique of Little Englanders seem to fester here. I well remember one of the "how will you vote at the GE?" polls in which something like 80% of voters on PH who could be arsed to vote in the poll supported UKIP. Many said that the Kippers would hold the balance of power.
Remind me again, how many new UKIP MPs were returned at the last General Election?
In other words, just because a bunch of gobby right wingers state something as fact doesn't necessarily make it so.
put this in perspective, they got more votes than the SNP+Greens+Libdems put together.
and it's not about being a "Little Englander", is that what you called our grandfathers when they were fighting for the sovereignty of the UK back in 1939-45?
it's about the UK being an independent sovereign state.
if you want to go and live in a dictatorship, leave, nobody is stopping you.
zygalski said:
Don said:
Interesting. Once again PH is not a barometer of public opinion. But as an indication my view on how this will turn out is being borne out here, at least.
I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
Indeed.I don't think Cameron could get a deal that would impress PH.
The views on PH forums are so far out of touch it doesn't even bare thinking about. A vocal clique of Little Englanders seem to fester here. I well remember one of the "how will you vote at the GE?" polls in which something like 80% of voters on PH who could be arsed to vote in the poll supported UKIP. Many said that the Kippers would hold the balance of power.
Remind me again, how many new UKIP MPs were returned at the last General Election?
In other words, just because a bunch of gobby right wingers state something as fact doesn't necessarily make it so.
Agree that PH is well off the mark when it comes to a representative view of the rest of the UK's political views - entertaining though.
I think most people's views on the EU in or out vote are so well entrenched that they may as well have the referendum tomorrow for all the good 4 months of talking is going to do regarding changing opinions.
I think most people's views on the EU in or out vote are so well entrenched that they may as well have the referendum tomorrow for all the good 4 months of talking is going to do regarding changing opinions.
limpsfield said:
Agree that PH is well off the mark when it comes to a representative view of the rest of the UK's political views - entertaining though.
I think most people's views on the EU in or out vote are so well entrenched that they may as well have the referendum tomorrow for all the good 4 months of talking is going to do regarding changing opinions.
Not talking we are going to have 4 months of anti leave propaganda funded by big business ,crony capitalists and those riding the EU gravy train...I think most people's views on the EU in or out vote are so well entrenched that they may as well have the referendum tomorrow for all the good 4 months of talking is going to do regarding changing opinions.
I don't think anybody is looney enough to suggest PH is a representative sample of the general public.
I would suggest the typical poster in here is actually pretty well educated and informed compared to the average, (you only have to read that mumsnet link to realise this).
personally, I find this obsession with the trivial parts of the EU massively frustrating, who the F**K cares about mobile phone roaming charges in the context of paying some £55M a day for the privilege?
our ancestors gave their lives for the UK to remain an independent sovereign state, yet people now seem to think sovereignty/democracy is unimportant?
I would suggest the typical poster in here is actually pretty well educated and informed compared to the average, (you only have to read that mumsnet link to realise this).
personally, I find this obsession with the trivial parts of the EU massively frustrating, who the F**K cares about mobile phone roaming charges in the context of paying some £55M a day for the privilege?
our ancestors gave their lives for the UK to remain an independent sovereign state, yet people now seem to think sovereignty/democracy is unimportant?
Cameron went begging to tinker with some irrelevant corners of our relationship with Europe, and he returned having failed to achieve his extremely limited aims. How anyone of sense can consider this a triumph escapes me.
We are still beholden to this failing and utterly undemocratic behemoth. Just look at some of the comments that have surfaced from Merkel, Hollande and some of the eurocrats to know how we stand. They need our money, but they hate us.
The irony of being called Little Englanders is staggering. I want a free country which looks outwards to the growing WORLD, not inwards to a collapsing Europe.
Out.
We are still beholden to this failing and utterly undemocratic behemoth. Just look at some of the comments that have surfaced from Merkel, Hollande and some of the eurocrats to know how we stand. They need our money, but they hate us.
The irony of being called Little Englanders is staggering. I want a free country which looks outwards to the growing WORLD, not inwards to a collapsing Europe.
Out.
Scuffers said:
I don't think anybody is looney enough to suggest PH is a representative sample of the general public.
I would suggest the typical poster in here is actually pretty well educated and informed compared to the average, (you only have to read that mumsnet link to realise this).
personally, I find this obsession with the trivial parts of the EU massively frustrating, who the F**K cares about mobile phone roaming charges in the context of paying some £55M a day for the privilege?
our ancestors gave their lives for the UK to remain an independent sovereign state, yet people now seem to think sovereignty/democracy is unimportant?
The UK scores pretty low on the democracy scale.I would suggest the typical poster in here is actually pretty well educated and informed compared to the average, (you only have to read that mumsnet link to realise this).
personally, I find this obsession with the trivial parts of the EU massively frustrating, who the F**K cares about mobile phone roaming charges in the context of paying some £55M a day for the privilege?
our ancestors gave their lives for the UK to remain an independent sovereign state, yet people now seem to think sovereignty/democracy is unimportant?
No elected head of state.
No elected second chamber.
First past the post voting system is non representational. 66.6% of MP's elected in 2010 did not have the support of a majority of voters.
The MP is supposed to represent their constituency but I have never heard of an MP actually polling their constituency to find out what they think. They vote on party lines the vast majority of the time.
The democracy argument doesn't wash with me as the electorate has very little say already. This is not going to change just because we leave the EU.
plasticpig said:
The UK scores pretty low on the democracy scale.
No elected head of state.
No elected second chamber.
First past the post voting system is non representational. 66.6% of MP's elected in 2010 did not have the support of a majority of voters.
The MP is supposed to represent their constituency but I have never heard of an MP actually polling their constituency to find out what they think. They vote on party lines the vast majority of the time.
The democracy argument doesn't wash with me as the electorate has very little say already. This is not going to change just because we leave the EU.
really?No elected head of state.
No elected second chamber.
First past the post voting system is non representational. 66.6% of MP's elected in 2010 did not have the support of a majority of voters.
The MP is supposed to represent their constituency but I have never heard of an MP actually polling their constituency to find out what they think. They vote on party lines the vast majority of the time.
The democracy argument doesn't wash with me as the electorate has very little say already. This is not going to change just because we leave the EU.
head of state has no role in management of the country - so irrelevant politically.
second chamber - House of Lords - yes, not ideal, but actually historically have done a pretty decent job, and most of them have been elected as MP/MEP's at some time in their past.
first past the post may not be great, but it's still an election where the electorate pick their government.
compared with the EU commision
Not elected,
lot of them are simply appointments based on who knows who
can you even name the UK's commissioner?
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