Anti-Semitism and the British Left.
Discussion
The argument to deflect against accusations of anti-semitism is normally to concentrate on each incident in isolation
There is of course, nothing wrong in criticism of Israeli policies. You won't find a greater range of positions in relation to this than amongst Israelis or jews in the diaspora
But there is a natural reason for jews in the diaspora to have a keener interest than most in Israeli politics, just as there might be for someone British, of Indian heritage, to have a keen interest in Indian politics
The question jews ask themselves is why a large group of primarily white, British, christian/athiest/non-religious socialists seem to focus on this particular topic above all other international topics/regimes and why they rarely if ever want to put any balance to their arguments
This borderline obsession with Israel/Palestine that so many of them seem to have appears partly because they identify with the plight of the (financially & otherwise) poor Palestinians being bullied by their rich Jewish oppressors, itself of course extending old stereotypes. No mention of there being plenty of poor Israelis and rich arabs, no apparent concern that whilst Israel has one of the most open, thriving LGBT communities on earth, homosexuality is still illegal in Gaza. No thought to equal rights, freedom of speech, a functioning democracy, etc. The natural 'partners' of those on the left should in all those ways be Israel, but all they ever do is criticize Israel and support the Palestinians
To suggest that Israel don't at least to some attempt, try to avoid civilian casualties or that the Palestinians don't deliberately use human shields goading the Israelis is outrageous, regardless of whether one agrees that then justifies the actions of each party. But amongst those on the left, you'll rarely hear anything said about those issues. Instead it's a blanket Israel is an evil apartheid regime, the Palestinians are justified in all that they do because the end justifies the means
If anybody wants to criticize Israeli policies, absolutely fine. But do so with some education first, provide some balance and try to explain why it's the only 'pet cause' you get so vociferous about . That's why jews fear the anti semitiic undertones - because they don't see any of that balance
There is of course, nothing wrong in criticism of Israeli policies. You won't find a greater range of positions in relation to this than amongst Israelis or jews in the diaspora
But there is a natural reason for jews in the diaspora to have a keener interest than most in Israeli politics, just as there might be for someone British, of Indian heritage, to have a keen interest in Indian politics
The question jews ask themselves is why a large group of primarily white, British, christian/athiest/non-religious socialists seem to focus on this particular topic above all other international topics/regimes and why they rarely if ever want to put any balance to their arguments
This borderline obsession with Israel/Palestine that so many of them seem to have appears partly because they identify with the plight of the (financially & otherwise) poor Palestinians being bullied by their rich Jewish oppressors, itself of course extending old stereotypes. No mention of there being plenty of poor Israelis and rich arabs, no apparent concern that whilst Israel has one of the most open, thriving LGBT communities on earth, homosexuality is still illegal in Gaza. No thought to equal rights, freedom of speech, a functioning democracy, etc. The natural 'partners' of those on the left should in all those ways be Israel, but all they ever do is criticize Israel and support the Palestinians
To suggest that Israel don't at least to some attempt, try to avoid civilian casualties or that the Palestinians don't deliberately use human shields goading the Israelis is outrageous, regardless of whether one agrees that then justifies the actions of each party. But amongst those on the left, you'll rarely hear anything said about those issues. Instead it's a blanket Israel is an evil apartheid regime, the Palestinians are justified in all that they do because the end justifies the means
If anybody wants to criticize Israeli policies, absolutely fine. But do so with some education first, provide some balance and try to explain why it's the only 'pet cause' you get so vociferous about . That's why jews fear the anti semitiic undertones - because they don't see any of that balance
jonby said:
The argument to deflect against accusations of anti-semitism is normally to concentrate on each incident in isolation
There is of course, nothing wrong in criticism of Israeli policies. You won't find a greater range of positions in relation to this than amongst Israelis or jews in the diaspora
But there is a natural reason for jews in the diaspora to have a keener interest than most in Israeli politics, just as there might be for someone British, of Indian heritage, to have a keen interest in Indian politics
The question jews ask themselves is why a large group of primarily white, British, christian/athiest/non-religious socialists seem to focus on this particular topic above all other international topics/regimes and why they rarely if ever want to put any balance to their arguments
This borderline obsession with Israel/Palestine that so many of them seem to have appears partly because they identify with the plight of the (financially & otherwise) poor Palestinians being bullied by their rich Jewish oppressors, itself of course extending old stereotypes. No mention of there being plenty of poor Israelis and rich arabs, no apparent concern that whilst Israel has one of the most open, thriving LGBT communities on earth, homosexuality is still illegal in Gaza. No thought to equal rights, freedom of speech, a functioning democracy, etc. The natural 'partners' of those on the left should in all those ways be Israel, but all they ever do is criticize Israel and support the Palestinians
To suggest that Israel don't at least to some attempt, try to avoid civilian casualties or that the Palestinians don't deliberately use human shields goading the Israelis is outrageous, regardless of whether one agrees that then justifies the actions of each party. But amongst those on the left, you'll rarely hear anything said about those issues. Instead it's a blanket Israel is an evil apartheid regime, the Palestinians are justified in all that they do because the end justifies the means
If anybody wants to criticize Israeli policies, absolutely fine. But do so with some education first, provide some balance and try to explain why it's the only 'pet cause' you get so vociferous about . That's why jews fear the anti semitiic undertones - because they don't see any of that balance
I couldn't have said it better myselfThere is of course, nothing wrong in criticism of Israeli policies. You won't find a greater range of positions in relation to this than amongst Israelis or jews in the diaspora
But there is a natural reason for jews in the diaspora to have a keener interest than most in Israeli politics, just as there might be for someone British, of Indian heritage, to have a keen interest in Indian politics
The question jews ask themselves is why a large group of primarily white, British, christian/athiest/non-religious socialists seem to focus on this particular topic above all other international topics/regimes and why they rarely if ever want to put any balance to their arguments
This borderline obsession with Israel/Palestine that so many of them seem to have appears partly because they identify with the plight of the (financially & otherwise) poor Palestinians being bullied by their rich Jewish oppressors, itself of course extending old stereotypes. No mention of there being plenty of poor Israelis and rich arabs, no apparent concern that whilst Israel has one of the most open, thriving LGBT communities on earth, homosexuality is still illegal in Gaza. No thought to equal rights, freedom of speech, a functioning democracy, etc. The natural 'partners' of those on the left should in all those ways be Israel, but all they ever do is criticize Israel and support the Palestinians
To suggest that Israel don't at least to some attempt, try to avoid civilian casualties or that the Palestinians don't deliberately use human shields goading the Israelis is outrageous, regardless of whether one agrees that then justifies the actions of each party. But amongst those on the left, you'll rarely hear anything said about those issues. Instead it's a blanket Israel is an evil apartheid regime, the Palestinians are justified in all that they do because the end justifies the means
If anybody wants to criticize Israeli policies, absolutely fine. But do so with some education first, provide some balance and try to explain why it's the only 'pet cause' you get so vociferous about . That's why jews fear the anti semitiic undertones - because they don't see any of that balance
Johnnytheboy said:
Hmmm, I'm kind of conflicted on this. I'm not in any way anti-Semitic, and I'm no fan of Labour, especially the current mutation.
However, I'm also deeply uncomfortable with the idea that we are so scared of anyone saying the Holocaust didn't happen (or anything else, for that matter) that to do so is a crime.
I guess I'm quite happy for some extremist loons that now find a place for themselves in the Labour Party to say what they believe, so that we can all find out just what extremist loons they are.
The labour party is indeed now full of young, idealistic loons who are being sold on ideals rather than workable policies and are so hooked on JC (plus they are rather stupid) that they don't see that his true view on the EU is totally different to their own, just because 'he's JC so he'll deal with Brexit just fine'However, I'm also deeply uncomfortable with the idea that we are so scared of anyone saying the Holocaust didn't happen (or anything else, for that matter) that to do so is a crime.
I guess I'm quite happy for some extremist loons that now find a place for themselves in the Labour Party to say what they believe, so that we can all find out just what extremist loons they are.
So to suggest that to such an audience, it's perfectly fine for people to question the simple fact that the holocaust even took place is dangerous in the extreme
Most people accept that free speech doesn't mean you can literally, say anything you want. There are relatively few lines in the sand, but the existence of the holocaust is one. Why is that the only line the labour party seem to push so frequently ? Why is it that if such prominent left wing figures got just half as close to unacceptable comments about any other race, sex or other group (with the exception of the rich toffs who it seems are fair game), they would get expelled but in relation to this, it gets brushed under the carpet as 'mood music by those with an agenda to dethrone JC' ?
How can it be acceptable for someone like Ken Loach when interviewed the other day to say anything other than 'to not accept the holocaust took place is utterly contemptible' ? What is the reason behind all this ? Then imagine you are a jew in this country watching that interview. Statements like Loache's that polarize and divide at a time when attempting unity and the ability to find middle ground compromise is more important than ever are just so dangerous
Edited by jonby on Thursday 28th September 13:15
jonby said:
So to suggest that to such an audience, it's perfectly fine for people to question the simple fact that the holocaust even took place is dangerous in the extreme
Most people accept that free speech doesn't mean you can literally, say anything you want. There are relatively few lines in the sand, but the existence of the holocaust is one.
I understand that, but doesn't the fact that it's a special case play in to the hands of people with a tendency towards anti-semitism?Most people accept that free speech doesn't mean you can literally, say anything you want. There are relatively few lines in the sand, but the existence of the holocaust is one.
There are many other examples of genocide in history, and yet Hitler's extermination of the Jews is the only one you aren't allowed to deny.
I don't believe the Albigensian Crusade killed any Cathars. There. I've said it.
Johnnytheboy said:
jonby said:
So to suggest that to such an audience, it's perfectly fine for people to question the simple fact that the holocaust even took place is dangerous in the extreme
Most people accept that free speech doesn't mean you can literally, say anything you want. There are relatively few lines in the sand, but the existence of the holocaust is one.
I understand that, but doesn't the fact that it's a special case play in to the hands of people with a tendency towards anti-semitism?Most people accept that free speech doesn't mean you can literally, say anything you want. There are relatively few lines in the sand, but the existence of the holocaust is one.
There are many other examples of genocide in history, and yet Hitler's extermination of the Jews is the only one you aren't allowed to deny.
I don't believe the Albigensian Crusade killed any Cathars. There. I've said it.
There is more than one 'special case' with regards to free speech. Free speech doesn't mean it's acceptable to say anything you want to, including hate speech and inciting violence for instance
In what possible way can holocaust denial be anything other than hate speech ? Regardless of your personal motives, it's very difficult to read a post saying 'the jews want a special case to be made for them' and 'why shouldn't people be allowed to deny the holocaust took place' without being incredibly offended. Those two statements each on their own and especially together, suggest there is doubt in some minds that the holocaust did take place
As a jew, I have to repeatedly read & listen to comments by leading socialists comparing zionism with Naxis, Israel with Apertheid, suggestions that Israel is trying to ethnicly cleanse the region and other equally outrageous & disgusting comments and then I see a post on here suggesting it's counter productive for jews to want a special case to be made for the illegality of holocaust denial.......imagine if it weren't illegal and those same people making the comments above were also allowed in the same speech to deny the holocaust - you seriously can't see what that leads to ?
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
That's not the right question (IMHO)Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The questions are why would someone want to deny it and why would someone take objection to it being illegal to deny it
As there are so few people left alive that witnessed it first hand, who will pretty much all be dead in a couple of decades and in the current climate that sees so many, particularly younger people, rely on wikipedia, google & such like as reliable, it is more important than ever that it simply can't be allowed to be disputed
People 'question' it because it conveniently fits into their world narrative (which includes the illuminati, fake moon landings & the royals being lizards)
I put them in the same category as flat earthers and chem trail believers - except Holocaust denial is actually highly offensive in addition to being totally crackpot!
I put them in the same category as flat earthers and chem trail believers - except Holocaust denial is actually highly offensive in addition to being totally crackpot!
Edited by Shay HTFC on Thursday 28th September 15:57
jonby said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
That's not the right question (IMHO)Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The questions are why would someone want to deny it and why would someone take objection to it being illegal to deny it
As there are so few people left alive that witnessed it first hand, who will pretty much all be dead in a couple of decades and in the current climate that sees so many, particularly younger people, rely on wikipedia, google & such like as reliable, it is more important than ever that it simply can't be allowed to be disputed
I can see genuine rational objections to it being illegal to deny the holocaust. There are no genuine reasons to deny the holocaust. Not that I know of at least, I don't expect that to change.
If find it odd that people who rarely live in a low employment crime ridden area and by and large seem to enjoy full employment
seem to be so hysterical in their perception of being targeted for abuse.
I bet its very rare.Along the lines of someone looked at me funny.
Meanwhile every other minority is subjected to stabbings,acid attacks ,discriminating in the workplace,low employment.
The undercurrent seems to be a constant attempt to derail any chance of labour getting in power with policies to benefit
everyone instead of a tiny percentage.
Are they actually saying they are that tiny percentage and want to maintain the status quo?
seem to be so hysterical in their perception of being targeted for abuse.
I bet its very rare.Along the lines of someone looked at me funny.
Meanwhile every other minority is subjected to stabbings,acid attacks ,discriminating in the workplace,low employment.
The undercurrent seems to be a constant attempt to derail any chance of labour getting in power with policies to benefit
everyone instead of a tiny percentage.
Are they actually saying they are that tiny percentage and want to maintain the status quo?
turbomoped said:
If find it odd that people who rarely live in a low employment crime ridden area and by and large seem to enjoy full employment
seem to be so hysterical in their perception of being targeted for abuse.
I bet its very rare.Along the lines of someone looked at me funny.
Meanwhile every other minority is subjected to stabbings,acid attacks ,discriminating in the workplace,low employment.
The undercurrent seems to be a constant attempt to derail any chance of labour getting in power with policies to benefit
everyone instead of a tiny percentage.
Are they actually saying they are that tiny percentage and want to maintain the status quo?
Ermmm???seem to be so hysterical in their perception of being targeted for abuse.
I bet its very rare.Along the lines of someone looked at me funny.
Meanwhile every other minority is subjected to stabbings,acid attacks ,discriminating in the workplace,low employment.
The undercurrent seems to be a constant attempt to derail any chance of labour getting in power with policies to benefit
everyone instead of a tiny percentage.
Are they actually saying they are that tiny percentage and want to maintain the status quo?
amusingduck said:
jonby said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
That's not the right question (IMHO)Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The questions are why would someone want to deny it and why would someone take objection to it being illegal to deny it
As there are so few people left alive that witnessed it first hand, who will pretty much all be dead in a couple of decades and in the current climate that sees so many, particularly younger people, rely on wikipedia, google & such like as reliable, it is more important than ever that it simply can't be allowed to be disputed
I can see genuine rational objections to it being illegal to deny the holocaust. There are no genuine reasons to deny the holocaust. Not that I know of at least, I don't expect that to change.
I'm with those who are confused about the reasons people hate Jews. I was brought up in east London and there were Jews and Irish in our area. Nothing was ever said about their ethnicity. It did not occur to me or my mates. We played with Jews and in my teens I discovered I was half Irish. It made no difference to me.
What's the beef with the Holocaust? Why should they deny something that is so easily provable? Who are these nutters?
What's the beef with the Holocaust? Why should they deny something that is so easily provable? Who are these nutters?
jonby said:
amusingduck said:
jonby said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
That's not the right question (IMHO)Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The questions are why would someone want to deny it and why would someone take objection to it being illegal to deny it
As there are so few people left alive that witnessed it first hand, who will pretty much all be dead in a couple of decades and in the current climate that sees so many, particularly younger people, rely on wikipedia, google & such like as reliable, it is more important than ever that it simply can't be allowed to be disputed
I can see genuine rational objections to it being illegal to deny the holocaust. There are no genuine reasons to deny the holocaust. Not that I know of at least, I don't expect that to change.
I think that generally, speech should be as free as possible. I think we'd have an easier time tackling racism etc if it was all out in the open, I think there would be more opportunity to educate people when it is less hidden. I may be wrong.
I read recently of a black American chap who managed to convert a load of KKK members. It wasn't even his intention to do so, he just wanted to listen to their viewpoint, and over time they reached the right conclusion themselves. His success gives me hope that people aren't rigidly confined to these boxes [racism, sexism, homophobia, etc], they just need the opportunity to see for themselves. I don't think making speech illegal helps in that regard.
Hopefully this makes a little sense
".I don't really see how "You can't be in our party if you hold these views" is an affront to free speech. I do think people should be free to say whatever they like, including denying the holocaust, but if the result is that nobody wants anything to do with them, that's their lookout.
Derek Smith said:
I'm with those who are confused about the reasons people hate Jews. I was brought up in east London and there were Jews and Irish in our area. Nothing was ever said about their ethnicity. It did not occur to me or my mates. We played with Jews and in my teens I discovered I was half Irish. It made no difference to me.
What's the beef with the Holocaust? Why should they deny something that is so easily provable? Who are these nutters?
I comprehend the hate with regards to their desire to blame the Jewish money lenders when they borrow too much money. I comprehend the hard Left who were indoctrinated by the USSR to hate Israel as a US backed state during the Cold War but I can't even get my head around the arguments over the Holocaust. It happened. I can't see what there is to gain from arguing the sky is green. I've just never understood them. And can only write them off as indoctrinated idiots. What's the beef with the Holocaust? Why should they deny something that is so easily provable? Who are these nutters?
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