Benefits Crackdown
Discussion
CrgT16 said:
The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.
We ARE a rich country, but the country's wealth is corralled by a tiny percentage of people.There was plenty of money suddenly available for business owners who were happy to harvest the magic money tree during the covid period.
Why not use these new found resources to retrieve those funds?
Going after the unemployed yet again will generate the square root of f
k all and is just the latest delivery of red-meat in a last-gasp act of desperation from a government on its last legs.If the government ensured that people who actually take jobs did not end up worse off, it would be a big help. So often I hear of people whose benefits stopped immediately upon starting a job, yet they then have to wait the best part of two months for their first pay. This sort of thing forces those trying to do the right thing into the hands of loan sharks.
The other issue is that if the individual takes the job and then for reasons outside of their control, they lose the job, it can again take a long time to get back to the benefits they were on previously.
If benefits continued to be paid for a year after starting a job and were simply deducted from the paypacket pro rata, then the individual could go continue on them if the job ended suddenly. Clearly there would need to be some provisos that discourage the individual doing things to get themselves sacked.
The other issue is that if the individual takes the job and then for reasons outside of their control, they lose the job, it can again take a long time to get back to the benefits they were on previously.
If benefits continued to be paid for a year after starting a job and were simply deducted from the paypacket pro rata, then the individual could go continue on them if the job ended suddenly. Clearly there would need to be some provisos that discourage the individual doing things to get themselves sacked.
I wont hold my breath to see if this crackdown extends to MP benefits. At least put a total stop to ANY subsidies for MP's if you are going to do this.
Contrary to what most Mail and Express readers think, the majority of those on benefits don't want to be on them. A huge number of those receiving benefits are already in work. There will always been lazy scroungers but I'd rather put up with them and make sure the genuine people who need the help aren't treated like st by wealthy aholes in power.
Maybe the government should concentrate on making work pay properly instead to trying to introduce more schemes that allow large companies/corps to get free labour because they are on benefits. There's a word for that.
The contempt this government has for ordinary people, esp the very poorest in society is horrific.
Contrary to what most Mail and Express readers think, the majority of those on benefits don't want to be on them. A huge number of those receiving benefits are already in work. There will always been lazy scroungers but I'd rather put up with them and make sure the genuine people who need the help aren't treated like s
t by wealthy aholes in power. Maybe the government should concentrate on making work pay properly instead to trying to introduce more schemes that allow large companies/corps to get free labour because they are on benefits. There's a word for that.
The contempt this government has for ordinary people, esp the very poorest in society is horrific.
98elise said:
Silvanus said:
CrgT16 said:
This always brings some odd comments.
Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?
Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.
You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…
The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.
Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.
Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a bh but it’s time to get real.
You say there are a lot of scroungers, how many? What are the figures for those that choose to be career benefit scroungers? Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?
Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.
You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…
The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.
Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.
Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a b
h but it’s time to get real. CrgT16 said:
This always brings some odd comments.
Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?
Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.
You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…
The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.
Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.
Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a bh but it’s time to get real.
The govt spend an inordinate amount of time gaslighting everyone about how many fraudulent claimants there are and how terrible those people are, but practically no time doing the same about white collar scumbags. What's up with that?Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?
Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.
You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…
The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.
Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.
Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a b
h but it’s time to get real. JuanCarlosFandango said:
Failed to stop illegal immigration.
Can't keep Hamas off the streets.
Last ditch attempt at appearing right wing.
Yup, it's just throwing red meat to the faithful. Nothing much will happen. Meanwhile, when it's all over, the Michelle Mone situation will still be under review and she won't have repaid a penny of the millions allegedly scammed off the taxpayer, the £4.3bn conned out of the taxpayers by co directors in dodgy covid loans will not have been recovered, etc. etc. Can't keep Hamas off the streets.
Last ditch attempt at appearing right wing.
There's very much a two tier system re fraudsters in this country. There's shoplifters, fare dodgers and benefit fraudsters that the Tories will go after, and there's lords and peers, non dom tax dodgers and company directors who will be ignored.
The Tories, tough on (working class) crime.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Failed to stop illegal immigration.
Can't keep Hamas off the streets.
Last ditch attempt at appearing right wing.
This, say all the right things but do absolutely nothing, if anything actively encourage it. Why do we not have a police force that are too frightened to get involved in stopping Just Stop Oil, shoplifting or Hamas demonstrations.Can't keep Hamas off the streets.
Last ditch attempt at appearing right wing.
This is just more talk, and the majority of people I know on benefits are signed off long term sick with stress or mental health and haven't ever worked a day in their lives. Just the idea of even going to work for one day or being up before midday would blow their tiny minds.
Once again they're setting their targets at those at the very bottom.
Be better off closing tax loopholes, getting multinationals to pay a proper amount of tax etc.
But no, instead we'll keep giving Amazon cheap land to build massive warehouses on so they can employ people for pennies an hour on insecure contracts and in inhumane working conditions just for all the profits to be funnelled off to Luxembourg.
Then if they run out of locals to employee then we'll just shuttle in more immigrants to drive down the labour prices and drive up the prices of housing in that area.
But again, it's all Steve with cerebral palsys fault that we're in a financial mess /s.
Be better off closing tax loopholes, getting multinationals to pay a proper amount of tax etc.
But no, instead we'll keep giving Amazon cheap land to build massive warehouses on so they can employ people for pennies an hour on insecure contracts and in inhumane working conditions just for all the profits to be funnelled off to Luxembourg.
Then if they run out of locals to employee then we'll just shuttle in more immigrants to drive down the labour prices and drive up the prices of housing in that area.
But again, it's all Steve with cerebral palsys fault that we're in a financial mess /s.
Funk said:
I couldn't agree more. One of my closest friends has epilepsy, diagnosed at 13 (once she finally got doctors to take her seriously - initially she was accused of faking/being a drama queen). She's been on reams of various medications since her teens (now in her 40s), qualified for and had VNS surgery and they're continually trying to bring her seizures under control.
....
I went through this with her every step of the way and saw how obstructive, difficult, dismissive and awful the DWP were but even worse the toll it took on her physically and mentally. She had to fight with no money, managing a chronic, potentially life-threatening condition. It should not be like that for people who have a proven, long-term medical condition. Her epilepsy won't just magically 'get better', the best she can hope for is that it's brought under control eventually somehow - and she and her epileptologist and their team are doing that on a continuous basis (incrementally increasing the VNS stimulation, she's just been moved over to a newer anti-epilepsy drug in the last few weeks etc). The most stupid thing is that one of the biggest triggers of seizures is stress and the actions taken by the DWP actively made her condition worse. The whole thing is fked up.
....
It's highly likely that people like her will get caught up in these sorts of measures and it will only add to the stress of managing a life-long, chronic and - at present - uncontrolled medical condition.
I am really sorry to hear about your friend, Funk and props to you for helping her through the process.....
I went through this with her every step of the way and saw how obstructive, difficult, dismissive and awful the DWP were but even worse the toll it took on her physically and mentally. She had to fight with no money, managing a chronic, potentially life-threatening condition. It should not be like that for people who have a proven, long-term medical condition. Her epilepsy won't just magically 'get better', the best she can hope for is that it's brought under control eventually somehow - and she and her epileptologist and their team are doing that on a continuous basis (incrementally increasing the VNS stimulation, she's just been moved over to a newer anti-epilepsy drug in the last few weeks etc). The most stupid thing is that one of the biggest triggers of seizures is stress and the actions taken by the DWP actively made her condition worse. The whole thing is f
ked up.....
It's highly likely that people like her will get caught up in these sorts of measures and it will only add to the stress of managing a life-long, chronic and - at present - uncontrolled medical condition.
Edited by Funk on Friday 17th November 12:10
I did a spell volunteering with the CAB between 2012-2015 and stories like this were almost routine (and things have got a lot more 'hostile' and intrusive since then - this was in the 'good old days' of the Coalition and Osbourne's 'strivers and scroungers' rhetoric).
I have quoted the passages from your tale that resonate the most with my experiences - these sort of situations played out again and again. People in genuine need of the welfare state through conditions and circumstances entirely out of their control, being made to jump through endless, repeating, intrusive hoops to keep up with the system and being put through a continual psychological wringer just to keep convincing the DWP that they were deserving of help. Of course that does a number on anyone's mental health and if people didn't have stress, anxiety and depression to add to their problems at the start of the process they often did by the end. More than one ended up virtually begging me to just close their case and let them fall back on the charity sector rather than keep going through it.
I ended up stopping my volunteering after three years because it was doing a number on my mental health, and I was outside the system, was choosing to put myself in that situation and had a job and a nice home to go to. It was a heartless, bureaucratic hell back then and everything I see and hear implies that it has only got worse.
The DWP isn't there to get people the help they need - that fundamentally isn't its purpose. Its purpose is to deny people help. The entire system rests on the assumption that everyone is a chancer and you have to continually prove that you are a deserving poor. It's brutally dehumanising for everyone involved, whatever side of the desk you sit on. The new idea of putting health assessments under the DWP is a classic example - now it won't be about assessing your medical, physical or mental condition. It will be about assessing your ability to work, and everyone at the DWP's performance is measured not on how many people they successfully match to the correct help but how many people they have sanctioned and how many people they have turned away. They just want them off the books, be it (the rarest case) because they've found them a great new job, because they've shoved them into a 'work experience' programme, because they've sanctioned them, because the claimant has withdrawn from the system or the claimant has died/killed themselves. It's all the same to the DWP.
When people on benefits are 'offered' these jobs (that they have to take on threat of sanction), what accommodations are made? If you have GSAD, will the DWP consider that the job they've found for you requires dealing with complaining customers and making a critically-timed bus route change twice a day? Will they consider that your arthritis doesn't suit you for picking boxes in an Amazon warehouse? Will they allow that your ADHD would make an office admin job mental torture for you, even if you're a wizz with Excel? Will they consider that your reduced lung capacity after a nasty COVID case means that while you can pack carrots into bags in the summer, you'll scarcely be able to draw breath in the winter?
Will they hell. The system won't care. And neither will the system require any accommodations on behalf of employers to Help People Back To Work. They won't require any adjustments to working hours to allow for travel time, childcare, medical/mental issues and so on. It'll be 'take this job, as offered, or else." It's always on the claimant, the little person, the one who is actually in need of help, to make do and adjust when it comes to Getting Back To Work. Employers, business and capital just lick their lips at the prospect of a new feed of cheap labour with no rights or protections.
So when I bristle at the latest 'crackdown' and see headlines about 'people who are able to work but won't' being sanctioned or denied certain public services it's not because I'm some bleeding-heart softy who thinks that you should be able to live a life of leisure on the public purse for no reason other than you fancy it. It's because I know that the reality and detail behind those headlines and the fierce rhetoric is that more people who need help will be denied it and be made financially, physically, mentally and humanly worse off. The "brand new car, four-bedroom house, three-holidays-a-year, never-worked-a-day-in-their-life" people - the tiny minority - will just lie, learn the workarounds or have the mental gumption and financial resources to keep their cases wrapped up in appeals for ever so they can keep suckling at the teat the don't deserve. No government crackdown, however harsh and however it gives certain people the warm fuzzies to imagine people being forced to work for their welfare, will really solve those cases and in the big picture they are not really a problem, however much it sticks in one's moral craw.
BOR said:
Why now?
Why now all of a sudden?
Classic divide and rule, and I swear to you, you are all much nearer to those on benefits than you are to the billionaire Sunak.
It’s classic Isaac Levido “wedge” issue political campaigning. That’s his style and, for so long as Sunak has little idea which other directions might engage well with the electorate, he’s going to continue to take Levido’s steer.Why now all of a sudden?
Classic divide and rule, and I swear to you, you are all much nearer to those on benefits than you are to the billionaire Sunak.
IIRC a the last major benefits crackdown was fired off against those people suffering from incapacity of various descriptions. Major form filling, visits to interviews, testing by non medical staff accessing range of incapacity of individuals. At the time I was disgusted by the approach of the Government regarding the policy.
Didn’t achieve much at all apart from stressing individuals affected by the process, which itself was later deemed inappropriate and withdrawn.
Didn’t achieve much at all apart from stressing individuals affected by the process, which itself was later deemed inappropriate and withdrawn.
crankedup5 said:
IIRC a the last major benefits crackdown was fired off against those people suffering from incapacity of various descriptions. Major form filling, visits to interviews, testing by non medical staff accessing range of incapacity of individuals. At the time I was disgusted by the approach of the Government regarding the policy.
Didn’t achieve much at all apart from stressing individuals affected by the process, which itself was later deemed inappropriate and withdrawn.
It doesn't need to work. It just needs to appease tory voters.Didn’t achieve much at all apart from stressing individuals affected by the process, which itself was later deemed inappropriate and withdrawn.
deckster said:
It's weird this. Everybody I know who relies on benefits is really fking struggling. I mean, really really struggling. I simply don't recognise this viewpoint of free houses & big TVs all round, outside of the Daily Mail of course.
they seem to find a few spare pennys for the Olympic size trampoline , 18ft inflatable snowman and to smoke 24/7king struggling. I mean, really really struggling. I simply don't recognise this viewpoint of free houses & big TVs all round, outside of the Daily Mail of course.maybe they need help /educating on what to spend the money on , how the hell anyone can afford to smoke beats me let alone those on benefits
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff