Light aircraft disappears with two people on board...
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Guvernator said:
I'm obviously no expert and this is probably simplifying things greatly but how does a pilot lose his bearings? Yes I understand he was only rated for VFR but surely one of the basic skills they teach you even with that rating is to follow a course\compass heading on the instruments? Why would you deviate off course? Surely if you were on the right heading before you lost your visual cues you just keep heading on in a straight line?
No, when learning to fly they drum it into you to keep looking out of the window as much as possible, to avoid collisions as much as anything else. Flying by reference to instruments is surprisingly difficult at first, you don't get the subtle clues out of the corner of your eye to tell you when you are banking or descending. Even once trained you need regular practice to fly safely on instruments alone.This pilot is reported to have had an IMC rating in which case he would have been trained to fly on instruments, but it had lapsed and he was almost certainly out of practice. Legally it would have been irrelevant even if not lapsed since he was flying a US registered aircraft and outside the UK,
I found this out almost to my cost when crossing the channel. Whilst having a valid IMC rating, I had not practiced flying on instruments for some time, as it is not a way of flying that I particularly enjoy. I elected to take the high crossing level in the Light Aircraft Corridor which put me in and out of cloud which I was not too concerned about (after all I had an IMC rating!) nevertheless I began experiencing minor issues with holding the heading which turned out to be down to a problem with the DI`s gyro. I began fixating on getting the heading back to where it should be, by re aligning the DI with the compass at regular intervals, but this took some of my attention off the other flight instruments, I then started trying to get the other parameters back where they should have been, only to find the heading was off again, and so on until I lost control, and dropped out of my assigned altitude, through some cloud below. Fortunately the weather was good, and there was about fifteen hundred feet of clear air from the underside of the clouds to the surface, which gave me plenty of time to work out what the aircraft was doing, and get it back under control, It was however the insidious way in which control was lost, that I found most alarming. For someone who does not fly, I can only liken it to the insidious way in which people who are driving when tired, fall asleep at the wheel. One second they are awake and `apparently' thinking, and seeing things, next second they are asleep and dreaming things. Add to this situation, flying at night, and being thrown around in bad weather (which does not help when interpreting what the (in some cases conflicting) instruments are telling the pilot, and the chances of a pilot even with an IMC rating `losing it' is increased significantly.
Possibly under-qualified pilot
Reported icing conditions
Possibly faulty de-icing system
Pilot unfamiliarity with aircraft systems, possibly including the de-icing system
Pilot lack of experience with night flying, even if qualified
Bad weather making it difficult to see horizon at night
Pilot under pressure due to late departure
Pilot under pressure to deliver his passenger probably affecting rational decision-making
Possibly a few other things I haven't listed
If you then add a primary instrument failure into that it seems inevitable that the worst could happen.
During my PPL training I was flying one of my first cross-country solos (VFR obviously) on a clear sunny day and the AI decided to invert 180 degrees mid-flight for a period of 20 minutes, clearly indicating that I was flying upside down. The real horizon told me otherwise. It then corrected itself before I landed. I don't think anybody believed me when I reported it, I didn't have a camera to prove otherwise.
That's an interesting anecdote, and even with my limited experience the dodgy DI is not unusual.
However according to the interim report this pilot was using an iPad, which would likely be giving him track and groundspeed. Unless the battery was flat. This pilot had a lot of experience.
Reading the report, the icing level, the altitude flown, the turns to keep clear of cloud and the speed at which it all came unstuck at the end without a radio call, points to a sudden catastrophic event, medical or technical, in my mind.
However according to the interim report this pilot was using an iPad, which would likely be giving him track and groundspeed. Unless the battery was flat. This pilot had a lot of experience.
Reading the report, the icing level, the altitude flown, the turns to keep clear of cloud and the speed at which it all came unstuck at the end without a radio call, points to a sudden catastrophic event, medical or technical, in my mind.
GT119 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Guvernator said:
I'm obviously no expert and this is probably simplifying things greatly but how does a pilot lose his bearings? Yes I understand he was only rated for VFR but surely one of the basic skills they teach you even with that rating is to follow a course\compass heading on the instruments? Why would you deviate off course? Surely if you were on the right heading before you lost your visual cues you just keep heading on in a straight line?
No, when learning to fly they drum it into you to keep looking out of the window as much as possible, to avoid collisions as much as anything else. Flying by reference to instruments is surprisingly difficult at first, you don't get the subtle clues out of the corner of your eye to tell you when you are banking or descending. Even once trained you need regular practice to fly safely on instruments alone.This pilot is reported to have had an IMC rating in which case he would have been trained to fly on instruments, but it had lapsed and he was almost certainly out of practice. Legally it would have been irrelevant even if not lapsed since he was flying a US registered aircraft and outside the UK,
I found this out almost to my cost when crossing the channel. Whilst having a valid IMC rating, I had not practiced flying on instruments for some time, as it is not a way of flying that I particularly enjoy. I elected to take the high crossing level in the Light Aircraft Corridor which put me in and out of cloud which I was not too concerned about (after all I had an IMC rating!) nevertheless I began experiencing minor issues with holding the heading which turned out to be down to a problem with the DI`s gyro. I began fixating on getting the heading back to where it should be, by re aligning the DI with the compass at regular intervals, but this took some of my attention off the other flight instruments, I then started trying to get the other parameters back where they should have been, only to find the heading was off again, and so on until I lost control, and dropped out of my assigned altitude, through some cloud below. Fortunately the weather was good, and there was about fifteen hundred feet of clear air from the underside of the clouds to the surface, which gave me plenty of time to work out what the aircraft was doing, and get it back under control, It was however the insidious way in which control was lost, that I found most alarming. For someone who does not fly, I can only liken it to the insidious way in which people who are driving when tired, fall asleep at the wheel. One second they are awake and `apparently' thinking, and seeing things, next second they are asleep and dreaming things. Add to this situation, flying at night, and being thrown around in bad weather (which does not help when interpreting what the (in some cases conflicting) instruments are telling the pilot, and the chances of a pilot even with an IMC rating `losing it' is increased significantly.
Possibly under-qualified pilot
Reported icing conditions
Possibly faulty de-icing system
Pilot unfamiliarity with aircraft systems, possibly including the de-icing system
Pilot lack of experience with night flying, even if qualified
Bad weather making it difficult to see horizon at night
Pilot under pressure due to late departure
Pilot under pressure to deliver his passenger probably affecting rational decision-making
Possibly a few other things I haven't listed
If you then add a primary instrument failure into that it seems inevitable that the worst could happen.
During my PPL training I was flying one of my first cross-country solos (VFR obviously) on a clear sunny day and the AI decided to invert 180 degrees mid-flight for a period of 20 minutes, clearly indicating that I was flying upside down. The real horizon told me otherwise. It then corrected itself before I landed. I don't think anybody believed me when I reported it, I didn't have a camera to prove otherwise.
I was doing a pre flight cockpit check with an examiner once, and commented that before starting, all the needles appeared to be where they were supposed to be. he retorted what are you talking about?, we haven't even started the engine yet!. I replied that for example if the pointer for the VSI was showing 500 fpm down, and we were sitting firmly on the ground, I would tend to be a little bit suspicious of the VSI
Pan Pan Pan said:
GT119 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Guvernator said:
I'm obviously no expert and this is probably simplifying things greatly but how does a pilot lose his bearings? Yes I understand he was only rated for VFR but surely one of the basic skills they teach you even with that rating is to follow a course\compass heading on the instruments? Why would you deviate off course? Surely if you were on the right heading before you lost your visual cues you just keep heading on in a straight line?
No, when learning to fly they drum it into you to keep looking out of the window as much as possible, to avoid collisions as much as anything else. Flying by reference to instruments is surprisingly difficult at first, you don't get the subtle clues out of the corner of your eye to tell you when you are banking or descending. Even once trained you need regular practice to fly safely on instruments alone.This pilot is reported to have had an IMC rating in which case he would have been trained to fly on instruments, but it had lapsed and he was almost certainly out of practice. Legally it would have been irrelevant even if not lapsed since he was flying a US registered aircraft and outside the UK,
I found this out almost to my cost when crossing the channel. Whilst having a valid IMC rating, I had not practiced flying on instruments for some time, as it is not a way of flying that I particularly enjoy. I elected to take the high crossing level in the Light Aircraft Corridor which put me in and out of cloud which I was not too concerned about (after all I had an IMC rating!) nevertheless I began experiencing minor issues with holding the heading which turned out to be down to a problem with the DI`s gyro. I began fixating on getting the heading back to where it should be, by re aligning the DI with the compass at regular intervals, but this took some of my attention off the other flight instruments, I then started trying to get the other parameters back where they should have been, only to find the heading was off again, and so on until I lost control, and dropped out of my assigned altitude, through some cloud below. Fortunately the weather was good, and there was about fifteen hundred feet of clear air from the underside of the clouds to the surface, which gave me plenty of time to work out what the aircraft was doing, and get it back under control, It was however the insidious way in which control was lost, that I found most alarming. For someone who does not fly, I can only liken it to the insidious way in which people who are driving when tired, fall asleep at the wheel. One second they are awake and `apparently' thinking, and seeing things, next second they are asleep and dreaming things. Add to this situation, flying at night, and being thrown around in bad weather (which does not help when interpreting what the (in some cases conflicting) instruments are telling the pilot, and the chances of a pilot even with an IMC rating `losing it' is increased significantly.
Possibly under-qualified pilot
Reported icing conditions
Possibly faulty de-icing system
Pilot unfamiliarity with aircraft systems, possibly including the de-icing system
Pilot lack of experience with night flying, even if qualified
Bad weather making it difficult to see horizon at night
Pilot under pressure due to late departure
Pilot under pressure to deliver his passenger probably affecting rational decision-making
Possibly a few other things I haven't listed
If you then add a primary instrument failure into that it seems inevitable that the worst could happen.
During my PPL training I was flying one of my first cross-country solos (VFR obviously) on a clear sunny day and the AI decided to invert 180 degrees mid-flight for a period of 20 minutes, clearly indicating that I was flying upside down. The real horizon told me otherwise. It then corrected itself before I landed. I don't think anybody believed me when I reported it, I didn't have a camera to prove otherwise.
I wonder if the pilot had a heart attack, possible given his age (59?) and perhaps the stress of flying in the conditions and beyond his capabilities. Sella perhaps did his best to control the plane but given the conditions and night time he just couldn't keep it out of the drink?? May explain the last few turns and the starboard bank into the sea as indicated by the radar plot?
number 46 said:
I wonder if the pilot had a heart attack, possible given his age (59?) and perhaps the stress of flying in the conditions and beyond his capabilities. Sella perhaps did his best to control the plane but given the conditions and night time he just couldn't keep it out of the drink?? May explain the last few turns and the starboard bank into the sea as indicated by the radar plot?
The footballer was found in the rear passenger area still strapped into his seat........aeropilot said:
The footballer was found in the rear passenger area still strapped into his seat........
Missed that bit!!!! You are Colombo and ICMFP!!! Of course the pilot may still have had a problem, perhaps Sella was asleep or realised too late?? If the pilot did pass out or suffer partial loss of consciousness, at 2,500 ft? how long would it take for the plane to crash??
number 46 said:
Missed that bit!!!! You are Colombo and ICMFP!!!
Of course the pilot may still have had a problem, perhaps Sella was asleep or realised too late?? If the pilot did pass out or suffer partial loss of consciousness, at 2,500 ft? how long would it take for the plane to crash??
Possibly 10 seconds, possibly not until after the fuel ran out. If the pilot was already having control problems much closer to the former.Of course the pilot may still have had a problem, perhaps Sella was asleep or realised too late?? If the pilot did pass out or suffer partial loss of consciousness, at 2,500 ft? how long would it take for the plane to crash??
Something does not quite add up to me.
We are being told the pilot, who was not IMC rated (or lacking current relevant flying hours at best) who was also inexperienced in the aircraft type decided to take off, knowing that he would be flying over the sea at night, into snow storms. He did not encounter a microburst, the storms were forecast all over the BBC for a few days beforehand.
I get taking risks, I will happily take £100 to the casino, I won’t re mortgage my house and empty my ISA to play roulette. There is speculation he did not know how to use the de-icing equipment is that not like driving a car without knowing how to use the brakes?
He must have known the risk he was exposing himself to.
We are being told the pilot, who was not IMC rated (or lacking current relevant flying hours at best) who was also inexperienced in the aircraft type decided to take off, knowing that he would be flying over the sea at night, into snow storms. He did not encounter a microburst, the storms were forecast all over the BBC for a few days beforehand.
I get taking risks, I will happily take £100 to the casino, I won’t re mortgage my house and empty my ISA to play roulette. There is speculation he did not know how to use the de-icing equipment is that not like driving a car without knowing how to use the brakes?
He must have known the risk he was exposing himself to.
nikaiyo2 said:
Something does not quite add up to me.
We are being told the pilot, who was not IMC rated (or lacking current relevant flying hours at best) who was also inexperienced in the aircraft type decided to take off, knowing that he would be flying over the sea at night, into snow storms. He did not encounter a microburst, the storms were forecast all over the BBC for a few days beforehand.
I get taking risks, I will happily take £100 to the casino, I won’t re mortgage my house and empty my ISA to play roulette. There is speculation he did not know how to use the de-icing equipment is that not like driving a car without knowing how to use the brakes?
He must have known the risk he was exposing himself to.
Pilots taking off into conditions beyond their competence are not uncommon, possibly the most common cause of general aviation fatal accidents. For example JFK junior and Graham Hill. He was probably under financial pressure and also underestimated how bad the conditions were.We are being told the pilot, who was not IMC rated (or lacking current relevant flying hours at best) who was also inexperienced in the aircraft type decided to take off, knowing that he would be flying over the sea at night, into snow storms. He did not encounter a microburst, the storms were forecast all over the BBC for a few days beforehand.
I get taking risks, I will happily take £100 to the casino, I won’t re mortgage my house and empty my ISA to play roulette. There is speculation he did not know how to use the de-icing equipment is that not like driving a car without knowing how to use the brakes?
He must have known the risk he was exposing himself to.
Dr Jekyll said:
Pilots taking off into conditions beyond their competence are not uncommon, possibly the most common cause of general aviation fatal accidents. For example JFK junior and Graham Hill. He was probably under financial pressure and also underestimated how bad the conditions were.
Also - it needs to be asked why either Nantes or Cardiff do not seem to have had a travel policy or TMC provider like most businesses ... eg: use safe commercial flights (either using major airlines or specialized commercial flights ( small jet etc)).to fly on that flight / plane / conditions/ route with that pilot would be unthinkable in any business I’ve ever worked in .... the apparent absence of any controls or guidelines is reckless and exposes the footballers to massive risks.
alfaman said:
Also - it needs to be asked why either Nantes or Cardiff do not seem to have had a travel policy or TMC provider like most businesses ... eg: use safe commercial flights (either using major airlines or specialized commercial flights ( small jet etc)).
to fly on that flight / plane / conditions/ route with that pilot would be unthinkable in any business I’ve ever worked in .... the apparent absence of any controls or guidelines is reckless and exposes the footballers to massive risks.
McKay claims Cardiff abandoned their new signing and left him to make his own arrangements to travel, but Cardiff have said they offered a scheduled flight option. Sala had plenty of options, he could have got on any number of flights but I bet he thought he had hit the big time when McKay offered to arrange a private flight. He probably expected a jet with pretty dolly birds, but McKay stumped up for a death trap flown by a plumber on a bad night to fly. to fly on that flight / plane / conditions/ route with that pilot would be unthinkable in any business I’ve ever worked in .... the apparent absence of any controls or guidelines is reckless and exposes the footballers to massive risks.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
TTmonkey said:
McKay claims Cardiff abandoned their new signing and left him to make his own arrangements to travel, but Cardiff have said they offered a scheduled flight option. Sala had plenty of options, he could have got on any number of flights but I bet he thought he had hit the big time when McKay offered to arrange a private flight. He probably expected a jet with pretty dolly birds, but McKay stumped up for a death trap flown by a plumber on a bad night to fly.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
McKay also doesn't clearly even understand the legalities of what cost-share means either from the BBC report....
BBC said:
However, in what could cast fresh doubt over the legality of the flight, Willie McKay said it was not a cost-sharing agreement as "Emi wasn't paying anything" and that he was going to pay "whatever Dave [Henderson] was going to charge".
Edited by aeropilot on Friday 1st March 08:21
hutchst said:
Just to clarify a point (that probably goes without saying) but if it was a medical emergency that caused the fatal crash, then if this WAS a commercial flight, a licensed commercial pilot would have been subjected to enhanced medical checks to keep his commercial licence valid.
Why are asking about a medical emergency that caused the crash......there's been no suggestion of that, and the evidence, such as there is, doesn't point to that scenario anyway.aeropilot said:
TTmonkey said:
McKay claims Cardiff abandoned their new signing and left him to make his own arrangements to travel, but Cardiff have said they offered a scheduled flight option. Sala had plenty of options, he could have got on any number of flights but I bet he thought he had hit the big time when McKay offered to arrange a private flight. He probably expected a jet with pretty dolly birds, but McKay stumped up for a death trap flown by a plumber on a bad night to fly.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
Sala died because he got the cheap option not the regulated flight or the expected professional high class outfit.
McKay organised this, and did so on a budget. His crocodile tears last night on the news report makes me bloody angry. He sent an Uber instead of a limo.
McKay also doesn't clearly even understand the legalities of what cost-share means either from the BBC report....
BBC said:
However, in what could cast fresh doubt over the legality of the flight, Willie McKay said it was not a cost-sharing agreement as "Emi wasn't paying anything" and that he was going to pay "whatever Dave [Henderson] was going to charge".
Edited by aeropilot on Friday 1st March 08:21
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