CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Graveworm said:
Elysium said:
It is the Govt who are dishonest. These rules, which destroy lives, livelihoods and freedoms are dishonest.
The honest, true, right and moral thing to do is resist them. To do what is best for us and our loved ones.
Johnson, Hancock, Whitty and Vallance have lied to us repeatedly. They have acted as if they are all powerful kings. As if democracy was nothing.
I do not believe the various Coronavirus Regulations have been lawfully created and I am happy, willing and proud to break them.
Great be proud to break them, lying in order to get away with doing it is dishonest. The honest, true, right and moral thing to do is resist them. To do what is best for us and our loved ones.
Johnson, Hancock, Whitty and Vallance have lied to us repeatedly. They have acted as if they are all powerful kings. As if democracy was nothing.
I do not believe the various Coronavirus Regulations have been lawfully created and I am happy, willing and proud to break them.
"He lied first so I can lie" Cheapens your argument to the playground level.
Howard- said:
Define "atmosphere"?
We're not talking about empty premises here. There are still people sat at tables chatting away, the quality of the food and the service and the lighting and the decor and the music playing and everything else is just as good.
I completely agree with the general opinion expressed in this thread, but I think some of you just like to make out that you're hard done-by by little situations that just aren't that bad.
At the end of the day, we're stuck with the mask thing for the foreseeable. If you don't want to go out for a meal or a drink because you have to wear a mask for 20 seconds when you walk from the door to a table, and you'd prefer to stay at home and grump on the internet instead, then fine.
My personal admittedly limited experience of our usually OK local pubs is generally:We're not talking about empty premises here. There are still people sat at tables chatting away, the quality of the food and the service and the lighting and the decor and the music playing and everything else is just as good.
I completely agree with the general opinion expressed in this thread, but I think some of you just like to make out that you're hard done-by by little situations that just aren't that bad.
At the end of the day, we're stuck with the mask thing for the foreseeable. If you don't want to go out for a meal or a drink because you have to wear a mask for 20 seconds when you walk from the door to a table, and you'd prefer to stay at home and grump on the internet instead, then fine.
Quiet. No mingling between tables. Not seeing happy faces. Especially the staff. Perspex Screens. No bar stools. No standing at, or sitting at bar. Laminated QE codes. A boards outside with WEAR MASKS KEEP DISTANCE etc, Signing in. Handwash. Restricted opening (often beyond that mandated because lack of custom). Restricted menu (ditto). Sense of misery and doom generally. Those stupid sliding big 'OPEN' and 'CLOSED' bog door signs especially. Wearing a mask for 2m to go to said bog. Pissing alone in the bog whilst wearing a mask, then looking in the mirror and glimpsing the hellish future that is encroaching.
It's generally miserable with the rare tolerable experience when meeting those that you would not otherwise see ordinarily.
I'll not bother going out with the household though, not worth the agro for a s
t (and still expensive) experience.Howard- said:
Define "atmosphere"?
We're not talking about empty premises here. There are still people sat at tables chatting away, the quality of the food and the service and the lighting and the decor and the music playing and everything else is just as good.
I completely agree with the general opinion expressed in this thread, but I think some of you just like to make out that you're hard done-by by little situations that just aren't that bad.
At the end of the day, we're stuck with the mask thing for the foreseeable. If you don't want to go out for a meal or a drink because you have to wear a mask for 20 seconds when you walk from the door to a table, and you'd prefer to stay at home and grump on the internet instead, then fine.
Pleased you've found some good places. We're not talking about empty premises here. There are still people sat at tables chatting away, the quality of the food and the service and the lighting and the decor and the music playing and everything else is just as good.
I completely agree with the general opinion expressed in this thread, but I think some of you just like to make out that you're hard done-by by little situations that just aren't that bad.
At the end of the day, we're stuck with the mask thing for the foreseeable. If you don't want to go out for a meal or a drink because you have to wear a mask for 20 seconds when you walk from the door to a table, and you'd prefer to stay at home and grump on the internet instead, then fine.
Unfortunately the places I've been have been devoid of any sense of enjoyment with either moody or paranoid staff, far less people than usual, hyped prices, music turned off (not sure why that was), and a lack of any kind of atmosphere that going to a pub should have.
As for the mask business, that's just laughably ridiculous and surely cannot last much longer before sense is seen.
Edited by vixen1700 on Thursday 15th October 14:10
Howard- said:
vixen1700 said:
Howard- said:
I've been out for a few pub meals. Apart from having to wear a mask as you walk from the door to your table, which is hardly the end of the world, and the tables being a bit further apart, it's the same as it always was?
I take it you don't value atmosphere then? We're not talking about empty premises here. There are still people sat at tables chatting away, the quality of the food and the service and the lighting and the decor and the music playing and everything else is just as good.
I completely agree with the general opinion expressed in this thread, but I think some of you just like to make out that you're hard done-by by little situations that just aren't that bad.
At the end of the day, we're stuck with the mask thing for the foreseeable. If you don't want to go out for a meal or a drink because you have to wear a mask for 20 seconds when you walk from the door to a table, and you'd prefer to stay at home and grump on the internet instead, then fine.
Near paranoia amongst some re obeying the rules
Hazard tape everywhere
Separation of different customer groups
Shouted at for doing something “wrong”
No
Spontaneity
App instead of human contact
Music has to be turned down
Out at 10pm
Masks when standing
Wonder why pubs are going out of business at a faster rate than ever before?
Not-The-Messiah said:
MDMetal said:
Not-The-Messiah said:
Stay in Bed Instead said:
Bikesalot said:
Just listening to Hancocks statement...
Why are members of parliament still urging others to 'listen to the science' and 'enforce a two to three week' circuit breaker.
Jeremy Hunt calling for everyone in the country to be tested every week.
There really is no end in sight is there.
10,000,000 tests per day.Why are members of parliament still urging others to 'listen to the science' and 'enforce a two to three week' circuit breaker.
Jeremy Hunt calling for everyone in the country to be tested every week.
There really is no end in sight is there.
At the end of this and we've worked out how much each saved life cost (it's going to be in the multi millions of pounds). it's only fair that's the set amount everyone gets to spend if they get ill.
Otherwise someone with a bit of sense would be questioning what we are doing.
1:Cost
2: likelihood of working
3: Quality of life (you can keep someone alive but if it's going to be in misery then what's the point?)
All 3 of these seem to have been totally forgot with Covid. And the likes of SAGE are a disgrace because of it.
richardxjr said:
"No vertical drinking" is the worst bit though. Joyless. The best pubs were always busy, lots of staggering about meeting old friends, talking ste.
Gone.
Exactly. TBH the “it’s not that bad” brigade can say wtf they want. Fact is we are seeing record redundancies in that sector across the country and pubs are going to dissappear big time unless they get a big handout for a long time to come yet. te.Gone.
People voting with their feet.
In 10 years when you drive / cycle thru a quaint village and remember a great country pub that had been there 300 years and then see it’s an “executive” home ... well, you’ll be able to say it was all worth it so that Ethel made her 92nd birthday
Graveworm said:
spookly said:
So the government can obfuscate and lie to justify introducing (IMHO immoral) NPI restrictions, but we shouldn't lie to avoid them. Give it a rest.
That's exactly what I am saying yes, it's only a personal viewpoint. We clearly differ on what it means to be honest. I exceed the speed limit pretty much every time I drive, it's illegal. If I am stopped by the police (As happened once) and they ask me do I know what the speed limit is I will tell them, if they ask what speed, I was going I will tell them, if they ask why I was speeding I will tell them. I don't agree with enforcing speed limits, I will deal with the consequences, if any come, but I don't agree that allows me to to lie.
I also commonly speed when safe to do so. If I'm pulled over then I won't admit to anything, and the police can issue an FPN or charge me if they think they have enough evidence. I certainly wouldn't give it to them by admitting it. I would have had at least two more tickets if I was daft enough to do that.
Same as with these NPI restrictions. They make no logical or scientific sense. Not complying with them is, IMHO, an exercise of my rights. If the government create a situation where they criminalise normal behaviour, then lying to avoid fines and court is sensible and morally justified IMHO.
All a bit Godwin's law.... but would you have followed laws that the Nazi party introduced and helped identify and round up their list of 'undesirables'? Not all laws are moral, sensible, necessary or just.
vixen1700 said:
As for the mask business, that's just laughably ridiculous and surely cannot last much longer before sense is seen.
Well, you'd hope not, wouldn't you? Trouble is, the great majority of people I know either a) genuinely believe that mask wearing helps greatly to "defeat the virus", or b) think we should do exactly what the rules say, for as long as it takes.Pistonheads NPE has become an oasis of sense in a desert of madness, but it's a very big desert!
Gym fined £1000 for staying open claiming it was for benefit of members mental and physical health.
Raised £31k in go fund me donations. Being healthy helps you fight covid. Its crazy we are not using this as an opportunity to get Britain healthy an not just back to working in factories and going to gregs and then getting sick.
Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-merseyside-...
Raised £31k in go fund me donations. Being healthy helps you fight covid. Its crazy we are not using this as an opportunity to get Britain healthy an not just back to working in factories and going to gregs and then getting sick.
Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-merseyside-...
Ntv said:
richardxjr said:
"No vertical drinking" is the worst bit though. Joyless. The best pubs were always busy, lots of staggering about meeting old friends, talking ste.
Gone.
Exactly. TBH the “it’s not that bad” brigade can say wtf they want. Fact is we are seeing record redundancies in that sector across the country and pubs are going to dissappear big time unless they get a big handout for a long time to come yet. te.Gone.
People voting with their feet.
In 10 years when you drive / cycle thru a quaint village and remember a great country pub that had been there 300 years and then see it’s an “executive” home ... well, you’ll be able to say it was all worth it so that Ethel made her 92nd birthday
The rules are indeed ridiculous, but sometimes you just have make the best out of a s
te situation.Graveworm said:
The measures in place, that have virtually eliminated flu deaths in other countries flu season have not reduced Covid to the same levels and still resulted in 50000 Covid deaths here. Those who oppose the measures, will start from a position that it would still only have been 50,000 without the measures,
Odd that. I seem to remember plenty of infections etc had taken place and been seeded long before end of march. So 50k dead was with measures implemented halfway through the outbreak. Comparing it to flu in the southern hemisphere this year is utterly stupid when they had measures right from the start of flu season.
OddCat said:
Off on a slight tangent, I have been wondering about the mechanics of the economic implications, impact on GDP etc. Leaving aside the governments creation of imaginary money to pay for things, essentially economic activity is about the circulation of money?
I have £75 in the bank. I can stop at home and keep my £75 or I can go out and spend it on a meal. If I do the former it adds £0 to GDP. If I do the latter it adds £75 to GDP, the business then pays tax out of that and also pays staff who pay tax etc. So my £75 end up part with HMRC, part with the restaurant owner, part with the restaurant staff and part with the restaurants suppliers. Some of that money then gets spent by the restaurant owner / staff / suppliers and that is classed as more GDP as the cycle goes on again. My £75 end up fragmented all over the place and being counted as maybe £150 of GDP (ignoring that it was also classed as GDP to my employer before he passed it on to me).
Basically then, GDP is accelerated / multiplied by the same money changing hands with HMRC slicing a bit off each time. I can see why high transactional / money turnover is attractive to HMRC. I can also see how people not spending will mean that some people stop getting money (the restaurant staff). But it feels like a lot of the economic activity (especially hospitality) is just a money circulation device.
QE aside, the amount of money is the same. It is just not changing hands and circulating at the usual rate. For everyone who is £1 better off (by not spending) someone else is down a £1. And HMRC don’t get their slice. I understand savings have increased by billions in the last few months with households saving 30% of their income rather than under 10%. The money is still there. It just isn't changing hands.
Of our £2tn GDP, a good chunk of it is money going round for the sake of it. In which case, when we say “think of the economy” what are we saying? Maybe everyone who doesn’t go to a restaurant should just make a donation of the same amount to the restaurant they would have gone to? If everyone carries on giving the money to the places where they would have spent it, even if they don’t receive a service, would that make everything okay?
When people talk about “the economy” being sacrificed are they sure they understand exactly what the economy is?
For the avoidance of doubt, I’m firmly in the “lockdown is insane – let’s just be a bit sensible but let this thing run its course” camp.
Do some research. You have missed that economic activity generates wealth. It is a fairly basic point.I have £75 in the bank. I can stop at home and keep my £75 or I can go out and spend it on a meal. If I do the former it adds £0 to GDP. If I do the latter it adds £75 to GDP, the business then pays tax out of that and also pays staff who pay tax etc. So my £75 end up part with HMRC, part with the restaurant owner, part with the restaurant staff and part with the restaurants suppliers. Some of that money then gets spent by the restaurant owner / staff / suppliers and that is classed as more GDP as the cycle goes on again. My £75 end up fragmented all over the place and being counted as maybe £150 of GDP (ignoring that it was also classed as GDP to my employer before he passed it on to me).
Basically then, GDP is accelerated / multiplied by the same money changing hands with HMRC slicing a bit off each time. I can see why high transactional / money turnover is attractive to HMRC. I can also see how people not spending will mean that some people stop getting money (the restaurant staff). But it feels like a lot of the economic activity (especially hospitality) is just a money circulation device.
QE aside, the amount of money is the same. It is just not changing hands and circulating at the usual rate. For everyone who is £1 better off (by not spending) someone else is down a £1. And HMRC don’t get their slice. I understand savings have increased by billions in the last few months with households saving 30% of their income rather than under 10%. The money is still there. It just isn't changing hands.
Of our £2tn GDP, a good chunk of it is money going round for the sake of it. In which case, when we say “think of the economy” what are we saying? Maybe everyone who doesn’t go to a restaurant should just make a donation of the same amount to the restaurant they would have gone to? If everyone carries on giving the money to the places where they would have spent it, even if they don’t receive a service, would that make everything okay?
When people talk about “the economy” being sacrificed are they sure they understand exactly what the economy is?
For the avoidance of doubt, I’m firmly in the “lockdown is insane – let’s just be a bit sensible but let this thing run its course” camp.
rustyuk said:
It's all about money now with the councils as the higher the tier the more cash they get.
Of course it is. Your local council would lock everyone up for 1p per head, because they get the money and suffer none of the pain.Don't be fooled - it is still Boris doing it. He just isn't ordering it.
Will it will be the same with the vaccine?
Gecko1978 said:
Gym fined £1000 for staying open claiming it was for benefit of members mental and physical health.
Raised £31k in go fund me donations. Being healthy helps you fight covid. Its crazy we are not using this as an opportunity to get Britain healthy an not just back to working in factories and going to gregs and then getting sick.
Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-merseyside-...
I heard him on the radio. They can be fined something like £10k every three hours that they stay open after a couple of days. Doesn't sound very sustainable. Raised £31k in go fund me donations. Being healthy helps you fight covid. Its crazy we are not using this as an opportunity to get Britain healthy an not just back to working in factories and going to gregs and then getting sick.
Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-merseyside-...
I felt sorry for him as he sounded close to tears and I'm sure he's representative of a lot of business owners that are being destroyed by this situation.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff