Discussion
QuantumTokoloshi said:
It is all a wonderful benign group of Europeans, sipping wine, eating Bratwurst, Croissants and Chorizo, singing Ode to joy. Phew, that has put my mind at rest.
You may just want to ask the Greeks about that benign non authoritarian EU schtick or the Italians or Hungarians or Austrians or Poles lately.
I am perfectly satisfied with how the EU runs things, no major concerns at all. You are, of course, entitled to a different view. You may just want to ask the Greeks about that benign non authoritarian EU schtick or the Italians or Hungarians or Austrians or Poles lately.
Rovinghawk said:
No, I'm saying that the effect is bigger than you imply.
It is largely the USA isn't it? If the US left, there would be no effective NATO. The question for Europeans is:
1. Increase individual budgets to have a larger role in NATO so it isn't all about the USA dictating Agendas and Command structures as far as it can because it is the biggest in the room or
2. Take back control (
) of how a Defence Force protecting Europe might work, where Europeans decide on how it is used, financed etc. Coolbanana said:
I mean, as things are now, you vote for your MP, right? After that, if the Party they represent wins the Government, you are out of the loop in terms of general law-making and ideas being passed or rejected. You have voted for an MP who you trust to work within Government on your behalf and that the Government as a whole makes good - you hope - decisions, on your behalf.
You aren't out of the loop though. The government know you can vote them out in a few years time if you aren't happy and every single decision is made according to the expected electoral effect. Coolbanana said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
It is all a wonderful benign group of Europeans, sipping wine, eating Bratwurst, Croissants and Chorizo, singing Ode to joy. Phew, that has put my mind at rest.
You may just want to ask the Greeks about that benign non authoritarian EU schtick or the Italians or Hungarians or Austrians or Poles lately.
I am perfectly satisfied with how the EU runs things, no major concerns at all. You are, of course, entitled to a different view. You may just want to ask the Greeks about that benign non authoritarian EU schtick or the Italians or Hungarians or Austrians or Poles lately.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You certainly are. Luckily an increasing number of Europeans are not as complacent.
You are overstating it. The Italians and Greeks are complaining because their economies have been built on foundations of fraud and malfeasance. They are now feeling the squeeze and culturally are at odds with the rules and process-driven Northern Europeans. Granted - this remains a problem and you can certainly argue that Greece should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. But populism is only ever going to be a minority sport because neither country has the pockets to survive independently. Indeed, in spite of Greece's woes the majority still want to stay in the EU.The bark of the populist dog is loud, for sure, but it represents perhaps 20-30% of the vote max. Indeed, in the Netherlands most recent municipal elections in 2018 Wilders party got barely 14% inspite of all the noise Wilders has made.
Do not underestimate the commitment to the European project among the majority of working Europeans. I spend most of my working life in Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt. Right wing views exist but they are a minority and I cannot see that changing.
toppstuff said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You certainly are. Luckily an increasing number of Europeans are not as complacent.
You are overstating it. The Italians and Greeks are complaining because their economies have been built on foundations of fraud and malfeasance. They are now feeling the squeeze and culturally are at odds with the rules and process-driven Northern Europeans. Granted - this remains a problem and you can certainly argue that Greece should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. But populism is only ever going to be a minority sport because neither country has the pockets to survive independently. Indeed, in spite of Greece's woes the majority still want to stay in the EU.The bark of the populist dog is loud, for sure, but it represents perhaps 20-30% of the vote max. Indeed, in the Netherlands most recent municipal elections in 2018 Wilders party got barely 14% inspite of all the noise Wilders has made.
Do not underestimate the commitment to the European project among the majority of working Europeans. I spend most of my working life in Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt. Right wing views exist but they are a minority and I cannot see that changing.
The word "Populism" is used as pejorative, when the populace views begin to diverge from the politicians narrative. It also the very core of Democracy, Demos (people) kratos (power)
The italians in the latest polls have a more negative view of the EU than the UK, again across the political spectrum, Anti-EU sentiment is so understated that the Italian government coalition is now Eurosceptic, but yes, I am understating it.
You have Greek Communists agreeing with French right wing parties on this matter, strange bedfellows indeed, far from the Right wing narrative being pushed now.
Greece was allowed to join the EU and the Euro, who allowed them too ? The expansion and centralisation at any cost came home to roost, and the supposed benign nature of the EU was exposed.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 21st November 12:09
toppstuff said:
You are overstating it. The Italians and Greeks are complaining because their economies have been built on foundations of fraud and malfeasance. They are now feeling the squeeze and culturally are at odds with the rules and process-driven Northern Europeans. Granted - this remains a problem and you can certainly argue that Greece should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. But populism is only ever going to be a minority sport because neither country has the pockets to survive independently. Indeed, in spite of Greece's woes the majority still want to stay in the EU.
The bark of the populist dog is loud, for sure, but it represents perhaps 20-30% of the vote max. Indeed, in the Netherlands most recent municipal elections in 2018 Wilders party got barely 14% inspite of all the noise Wilders has made.
Do not underestimate the commitment to the European project among the majority of working Europeans. I spend most of my working life in Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt. Right wing views exist but they are a minority and I cannot see that changing.
How many times is this canard about Brexiteers being right wingers going to be repeated? My opposition to the EU is based on progressive views - democracy, concern for the less well off, internationalism etc. The bark of the populist dog is loud, for sure, but it represents perhaps 20-30% of the vote max. Indeed, in the Netherlands most recent municipal elections in 2018 Wilders party got barely 14% inspite of all the noise Wilders has made.
Do not underestimate the commitment to the European project among the majority of working Europeans. I spend most of my working life in Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt. Right wing views exist but they are a minority and I cannot see that changing.
I’d have thought if you asked most people who they thought in politics would be supporting a protectionist, corporatist organisation which imposes savagely regressive taxes on life’s necessities and acts in the interests of well-established manufacturers, most would indicate right wing...
Dr Jekyll said:
You aren't out of the loop though. The government know you can vote them out in a few years time if you aren't happy and every single decision is made according to the expected electoral effect.
Problem solved then, we just vote in a new, competent Government that does everything the way we want at the next election. 
psi310398 said:
How many times is this canard about Brexiteers being right wingers going to be repeated? My opposition to the EU is based on progressive views - democracy, concern for the less well off, internationalism etc.
I’d have thought if you asked most people who they thought in politics would be supporting a protectionist, corporatist organisation which imposes savagely regressive taxes on life’s necessities and acts in the interests of well-established manufacturers, most would indicate right wing...
spot on,it takes some serious mental gymnastics to come to any other conclusion.I’d have thought if you asked most people who they thought in politics would be supporting a protectionist, corporatist organisation which imposes savagely regressive taxes on life’s necessities and acts in the interests of well-established manufacturers, most would indicate right wing...
psi310398 said:
How many times is this canard about Brexiteers being right wingers going to be repeated? .
That is a fair point. On the other hand, while I have no evidence, I do not feel too uncomfortable thinking there is a reasonable correlation between nationalism / right wing thinking and Brexit. Of course there are notable exceptions.
This cuts both ways of course. I am hardly a hand-wringing lefty, even if my assessment of the pros and cons of Brexit leads me to land on the side of the Remain camp.
toppstuff said:
psi310398 said:
How many times is this canard about Brexiteers being right wingers going to be repeated? .
That is a fair point. On the other hand, while I have no evidence, I do not feel too uncomfortable thinking there is a reasonable correlation between nationalism / right wing thinking and Brexit. Of course there are notable exceptions.
This cuts both ways of course. I am hardly a hand-wringing lefty, even if my assessment of the pros and cons of Brexit leads me to land on the side of the Remain camp.
There’s debate about whether more of the leave voters were right or left leaning but it’s undeniable that without the left wing vote, ‘leave’ wouldn’t have won.
Coolbanana said:
Rovinghawk said:
No, I'm saying that the effect is bigger than you imply.
It is largely the USA isn't it? If the US left, there would be no effective NATO. The question for Europeans is:
1. Increase individual budgets to have a larger role in NATO so it isn't all about the USA dictating Agendas and Command structures as far as it can because it is the biggest in the room or
2. Take back control (
) of how a Defence Force protecting Europe might work, where Europeans decide on how it is used, financed etc. alfie2244 said:
I don't know about an EU army..there's a French minister wishing for an entire European Empire FFS.
" a federal European empire as “European sovereignty” he told the conference that whilst it should be built “brick by brick,” “rapid progress” is needed. “We should be looking at weeks and months much more than years.”
Bruno Le Maire
"Ever Closer Union", the phrase so many remainer's seem happy to ignore." a federal European empire as “European sovereignty” he told the conference that whilst it should be built “brick by brick,” “rapid progress” is needed. “We should be looking at weeks and months much more than years.”
Bruno Le Maire
Talksteer said:
Lotobear said:
“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”
What the hell has that got to do with an EU military?As it currently stands the EU spends collectively around $230 billion on defence and has around 1.8 million persons underarms. This is around half the budget of the US and substantially more personal, around the same as the PLA.
The actual military effects that the EU nations can manage is substantially lower than the US or China.
Simply put the EU could achieve an awful lot more if it was coordinated, there is duplication and inefficiencies. It makes sense for the EU to pool funding on certain assets that none of them can afford to purchase in numbers on their own.
The EU isn't some weird conspiracy and any concerns will be knocked about at the policy development stage. I suspect that there would be substantial restrictions on its usage in the EU I suspect it would only ever be allowed to be used in an EU country at the request of the government of said country and for a limited number of reasons e.g. little green men.
As to how such a force would operate I'd say the best way would be a secondment model for units under the EU command with a permanent Command and MoD staffed by individual secondments from nations militaries. The MoD would coordinate EU military procurement and also buy the big ticket items like AWAC's, carriers, transport aircraft, BMD which would be operated as a pooled resource. This money would come out of a general EU budget so it would be paid for based on the size of each EU country's economy.
As to how it would operate I would imagine sometimes it would operate as an EU force, sometimes to back up an EU member who would provide most of the manpower for a mission (most likely France), sometimes and EU member would simply borrow a pooled asset. It would go without saying than any member would have the right to withdraw any person or unit from a campaign they did not agree with.
TX.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You certainly are. Luckily an increasing number of Europeans are not as complacent.
I've not met a single European outside of the UK who genuinely wants out. So we obviously travel in different circles. But that's fine, you are leaving so you don't need to worry anymore, do you? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff