Discussion
Coolbanana said:
wc98 said:
it is the drip, drip, drip method i do not like. these people are all civil servants. the emphasis should be on the word servant, there to facilitate ease of life for those that put them in their respective positions. instead they are ideologues ,promoting a future vision that as far as i can see is only shared by other bureaucrats.
no problem with them coming up with ideas , but put them to the people and if the people say "you can shove that idea up your arse" it should be shelved. the only person that knows what is good for me, is me. not some pissed up decrepit alky that was shown to be bent as a nine bob note when running affairs in his homeland.
You want the EU to put their ideas to the People? How would that work on such a large scale? no problem with them coming up with ideas , but put them to the people and if the people say "you can shove that idea up your arse" it should be shelved. the only person that knows what is good for me, is me. not some pissed up decrepit alky that was shown to be bent as a nine bob note when running affairs in his homeland.
I mean, as things are now, you vote for your MP, right? After that, if the Party they represent wins the Government, you are out of the loop in terms of general law-making and ideas being passed or rejected. You have voted for an MP who you trust to work within Government on your behalf and that the Government as a whole makes good - you hope - decisions, on your behalf.
One of those trust functions is that they send good - you hope - MEP's to Brussels and, on your behalf, vote for Policies, Regulations etc. within the EU.
The EU has 5 different Branches. one of which comes up with ideas and also implements approved ideas. But the acceptance of all the ideas and Policies is voted for by the EU Parliament, with elected MEP's from each Member country which works on a strict democratic vote that is weighted according to each Member country's population size, or, in the case of major ideas and Policies, by the Heads of State for each Member country where they each have the power to veto.
I think, for such a large collective, the EU does pretty well overall. If it had to send every big decision to the People, every Referendum would take years and hardly anything would ever actually get done. Similarly, if the UK Government held a Referendum every time instead of going to Parliament, the UK would grind to a halt.
You can't expect to be able to vote on everything. It isn't a Dictatorship and undemocratic for the UK or the EU to not include you personally in every big decision they make. You get one vote, your MP. After that, you have entrusted that MP to work for you within Parliament. You cannot accuse the EU of being unfair in not consulting you on all matters any more than you can accuse the UK Government of the same.
As for JCJ, he is nothing more than a Facilitator, he arranges and Chairs meetings, no real power whatsoever when it comes to anything more than ensuring the decisions made by the other Branches are carried out. An old soap who gets the discussions going amongst the really important people; he throws a good wine & dine, that's his job.
TX.
Coolbanana said:
Dr Jekyll said:
You aren't out of the loop though. The government know you can vote them out in a few years time if you aren't happy and every single decision is made according to the expected electoral effect.
The same with EU posts...and? When was this change brought into the EU? As of yesterday they were appointed.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Really? The commision (which is the only body able to propose legislation) is directly elected by the electorate ?
When was this change brought into the EU? As of yesterday they were appointed.
Oh do grow up! When was this change brought into the EU? As of yesterday they were appointed.
I have posted previously how each of the 5 Branches works and how they are elected. It is fair and democratic. I am not going to repeat posting it, you can find it easily enough on the internet.
Coolbanana said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Really? The commision (which is the only body able to propose legislation) is directly elected by the electorate ?
When was this change brought into the EU? As of yesterday they were appointed.
Oh do grow up! When was this change brought into the EU? As of yesterday they were appointed.
I have posted previously how each of the 5 Branches works and how they are elected. It is fair and democratic. I am not going to repeat posting it, you can find it easily enough on the internet.
Terminator X said:
Not much of an option though is it eg choose one of these candidates, if indeed your preferred option is to choose none of them and can the whole thing. Yes you can abstain from voting however it will still happen of course. No one asked us if we wanted a United States of Europe remember ...
TX.
Your Government and PM (and Parliament) largely make those decisions for you as they have always done - why do you insist that every decision the EU makes has to go to the general public when their elected Heads of State and Parliaments take the will of their constituents to the EU and vote accordingly? TX.
Do you get to vote on everything Parliament does now? As it happens, in this case, you were given a vote, in 2016. Remember?
If you do not want the UK to 'risk' being a Member of a USofE then you tell them that, as you have done in 2016, and then you hope that they remove you from the EU. If, at any point a majority in the UK want to rejoin or try to cancel Brexit, and they win, that's democracy and you have to accept it.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Stop making wholly incorrect statements in that case.
I'm not - you are choosing to project your own personal interpretation. You stated that you could vote out your chosen Government if they didn't perform. What you do, is try to vote out your own MP if their Party is not performing to your expectations. One MP.
You then hope that in voting out your one MP, the Party they represent loses too.
Similarly, the one MP you have voted in, you hope their Party is in No. 10. You then entrust that they will manage their EU duties and MEP's to your and your country's satisfaction. If you think they are failing in this regard, you can tell them this by trying to vote out your MP at the next election.
It all comes down to your one MP and your single vote. You entrust your vote to the person you believe will represent what you would like to see and, more importantly, the best interests of your country.
Is it because you personally do not vote for any EU positions and that the voting for those positions is by your MEP's and Head of State that upsets you?
Do you vote who will be your Foreign Minister? Health Minister? PM? No? You entrust your MP and their Party to choose wisely when it comes to who does what domestically, but expect them to stop there and give you a vote in the EU roles?
Edited by Coolbanana on Wednesday 21st November 14:58
Coolbanana said:
Terminator X said:
Not much of an option though is it eg choose one of these candidates, if indeed your preferred option is to choose none of them and can the whole thing. Yes you can abstain from voting however it will still happen of course. No one asked us if we wanted a United States of Europe remember ...
TX.
Your Government and PM (and Parliament) largely make those decisions for you as they have always done - why do you insist that every decision the EU makes has to go to the general public when their elected Heads of State and Parliaments take the will of their constituents to the EU and vote accordingly? TX.
Do you get to vote on everything Parliament does now? As it happens, in this case, you were given a vote, in 2016. Remember?
If you do not want the UK to 'risk' being a Member of a USofE then you tell them that, as you have done in 2016, and then you hope that they remove you from the EU. If, at any point a majority in the UK want to rejoin or try to cancel Brexit, and they win, that's democracy and you have to accept it.
TX.
Coolbanana said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Stop making wholly incorrect statements in that case.
I'm not - you are choosing to project your own personal interpretation. "The president-elect selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by all EU heads of state or government, meeting in the European Council.
Each nominee must appear before the parliamentary committee with responsibility for his or her proposed portfolio. Committee members then vote on the nominee’s suitability for the position."
Silly me, I must have misinterpreted "suggestions" to mean voted for. Easy mistake to make in the EU.
Next, you will be arguing that the Pope really is a Jewish/Muslim of Hindu ancestry.
Terminator X said:
I didn't mention any of that and you have ignored my point which is "No one asked us if we wanted a United States of Europe remember ... " the 2016 vote was leave or not so not quite the same as the USE question.
TX.
Does your Government need to run everything they do past you? Do they offer you a Referendum on every Law or Policy before passing it? Your elected Government know what the goals of the EU are and your Head of State meets with them 4 times a year - discusses what the 28 (soon to be 27) collectively want to see happen. TX.
If you feel neglected in that your Prime Minister and MEP's are taking you down a path you don't like - on your behalf - then you stand up and tell them, no? Why must you wait for them to decide whether or not to give you a Referendum on it or not?
Frankly, if you just sit around twiddling your thumbs and doing nothing but moan on the internet rather than speak up to your MP, then you deserve to have a Government that breast feeds you and makes every decision for you.
What you are describing is an issue between you, your MP and your UK Government. Nothing at all to do with the EU who act as a result of what the majority of Member States want to see.
Coolbanana said:
Terminator X said:
I didn't mention any of that and you have ignored my point which is "No one asked us if we wanted a United States of Europe remember ... " the 2016 vote was leave or not so not quite the same as the USE question.
TX.
Does your Government need to run everything they do past you? Do they offer you a Referendum on every Law or Policy before passing it? Your elected Government know what the goals of the EU are and your Head of State meets with them 4 times a year - discusses what the 28 (soon to be 27) collectively want to see happen. TX.
If you feel neglected in that your Prime Minister and MEP's are taking you down a path you don't like - on your behalf - then you stand up and tell them, no? Why must you wait for them to decide whether or not to give you a Referendum on it or not?
Frankly, if you just sit around twiddling your thumbs and doing nothing but moan on the internet rather than speak up to your MP, then you deserve to have a Government that breast feeds you and makes every decision for you.
What you are describing is an issue between you, your MP and your UK Government. Nothing at all to do with the EU who act as a result of what the majority of Member States want to see.
what I will do though is ask him and post up here what his response is.TX.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Which part of this is lost in "personal interpretation"?
"The president-elect selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by all EU heads of state or government, meeting in the European Council.
Each nominee must appear before the parliamentary committee with responsibility for his or her proposed portfolio. Committee members then vote on the nominee’s suitability for the position."
Silly me, I must have misinterpreted "suggestions" to mean voted for. Easy mistake to make in the EU.
Next, you will be arguing that the Pope really is a Jewish/Muslim of Hindu ancestry.
Seriously? What do you not understand about that? "The president-elect selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by all EU heads of state or government, meeting in the European Council.
Each nominee must appear before the parliamentary committee with responsibility for his or her proposed portfolio. Committee members then vote on the nominee’s suitability for the position."
Silly me, I must have misinterpreted "suggestions" to mean voted for. Easy mistake to make in the EU.
Next, you will be arguing that the Pope really is a Jewish/Muslim of Hindu ancestry.
So, we have suggestions put forward by the EU countries themselves. In other words, the countries that make up the EU may wish to put up their own preferred Candidates. How is that an issue?
Once the list of Nominees is complete it is put to the European Council which is where the Heads of State and senior Government officials from every Member State, get to agree or disagree with all the names put on the list.
The UK PM may decide a name is unsuitable for a senior role and wants it off. The PM will be acting in accordance with what he/she feels is in the best interests of his/her country. Once the list is agreed at the EC by your elected Officials, it goes to the Parliamentary Committee who then vote, democratically, for each role using the names from the Approved List.
The result is that the EU Parliament has made a democratic vote for the Team that represents the Commission. The European Parliament is made up of MEP's from the Member States.
Where is this not democratic? Are you really hung up by the fact that your MP's bosses have made suggestions for Commission posts that you wanted sent past your nose first?
You must've got very upset when the PM didn't consult you when appointing her Team!
Terminator X said:
NO ONE ASKED IF WE THE VOTERS WANT A UNITED STATES OF EUROPE they are just ploughing on with it! If you think that I can do anything about it via my MP or MEP you are frankly what I will do though is ask him and post up here what his response is.
TX.
THAT'S AN ISSUE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT! what I will do though is ask him and post up here what his response is.TX.
The EU Commission makes no secret of its proposals! It puts them to the EU Council who get to decide if their ideas have merit or not. The EC is made up of your elected Head of State and all the other Heads of State. The Commission who come up with their ideas is held accountable by the EU Parliament, who vote democratically via each Member States MEP's.
Your Government took you into the EU! Your Government has up to now stayed in the EU! Therefore, your Government has accepted everything the EU has done thus far and, if the UK had remained, would have no doubt represented what they thought the UK electorate would have wanted going forward with each and every decision that needed making at EU C or EU Parliament level.
The EU is a body that is run by each Member States elected Officials, it does not need to ask Mr Terminator X what to do next or if he is a happy little chappy because the EU understands that Mr Terminator X has entrusted his own UK Government to do that on his behalf!
Rovinghawk said:
Probably where people are appointed to positions of power rather than elected. They are then in a position to appoint others who also aren't elected.
They are elected, by each Member States Head of State in the EU C for very senior positions, and via the EU Parliament where each Member States MEP's vote. The way some of you carry on, you'd swear you got to vote for each and every position within your own Government, House of Lords and even Civil Service! When in actual fact, you only get to vote for one MP!
Just because you personally are involved in the voting for each and every position, does not mean that those positions were appointed undemocratically - your Head of State and MEP's do that for you.
Coolbanana said:
Terminator X said:
NO ONE ASKED IF WE THE VOTERS WANT A UNITED STATES OF EUROPE they are just ploughing on with it! If you think that I can do anything about it via my MP or MEP you are frankly what I will do though is ask him and post up here what his response is.
TX.
THAT'S AN ISSUE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT! what I will do though is ask him and post up here what his response is.TX.
The EU Commission makes no secret of its proposals! It puts them to the EU Council who get to decide if their ideas have merit or not. The EC is made up of your elected Head of State and all the other Heads of State. The Commission who come up with their ideas is held accountable by the EU Parliament, who vote democratically via each Member States MEP's.
Your Government took you into the EU! Your Government has up to now stayed in the EU! Therefore, your Government has accepted everything the EU has done thus far and, if the UK had remained, would have no doubt represented what they thought the UK electorate would have wanted going forward with each and every decision that needed making at EU C or EU Parliament level.
The EU is a body that is run by each Member States elected Officials, it does not need to ask Mr Terminator X what to do next or if he is a happy little chappy because the EU understands that Mr Terminator X has entrusted his own UK Government to do that on his behalf!
TX.
Right, it has been a blast but I have better things to do for the rest of today so apologies if I do not get back to any unanswered posts.
I do think some of you need to brush up on how your own Parliament and Government are elected, how Civil Servants are appointed, and then read up on the EUs own websites as to how they do things - you'll see it is very, very similar.
I do think some of you need to brush up on how your own Parliament and Government are elected, how Civil Servants are appointed, and then read up on the EUs own websites as to how they do things - you'll see it is very, very similar.
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