CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)
Discussion
CrutyRammers said:
R-t6t6s said:
CrutyRammers said:
That's right. A general election which elected a party which promised a public vote on an issue, which was then taken, on the explicit terms that the result would be implemented, which was then voted through by a massive majority in parliament, and which then was confirmed again by voting in a government which promised to implement it, is exactly comparable with what's gone on over the last year.
It was clearly a throw away line, but surely the point is that it appears a majority support lockdown, and the basis of democracy is that the majority rule. Personally I dont support the lockdown either, but I do support democracy, and so if the majority feel its in their interests it is fair to go along with it.
Clearly they need educating, but then that argument didn't go well for Brexit really either....
That aside, the point is, that you determine what the majority wants with votes. Not polls. It "appeared" that a majority would vote remain. And vote for Corbyn. And Clinton. But when it came to the actual meaningful vote, they didn't.
We should not be basing policy on polls.
CrutyRammers said:
R-t6t6s said:
CrutyRammers said:
That's right. A general election which elected a party which promised a public vote on an issue, which was then taken, on the explicit terms that the result would be implemented, which was then voted through by a massive majority in parliament, and which then was confirmed again by voting in a government which promised to implement it, is exactly comparable with what's gone on over the last year.
It was clearly a throw away line, but surely the point is that it appears a majority support lockdown, and the basis of democracy is that the majority rule. Personally I dont support the lockdown either, but I do support democracy, and so if the majority feel its in their interests it is fair to go along with it.
Clearly they need educating, but then that argument didn't go well for Brexit really either....
That aside, the point is, that you determine what the majority wants with votes. Not polls. It "appeared" that a majority would vote remain. And vote for Corbyn. And Clinton. But when it came to the actual meaningful vote, they didn't.
We should not be basing policy on polls.
danllama said:
R-t6t6s said:
danllama said:
R-t6t6s said:
Surely if 52% of the population want something, then they have to get it and we don't worry about the minority as they are moaners? That's what I heard anyway, or was that another topic....
Have we had a vote on lockdowns and restrictions? I must have missed it. 
ks. If we had a nationwide referendum on this issue beforehand it would never have happened. Who the hell would vote for stripping away rights and livelihoods? That's why this appalling government have had to coerce and legislate us into submission. It's not a suggestion that lockdowns are anti democratic, they intrinsically are! At the heart of democracy is freedom.So your view of a democracy is that we are free to do as we please, or do you agree that there are normally limits imposed on that freedom?
Cold said:
"Obesity linked to hundreds of thousands of Covid-19 deaths, says report"
Link to 227 page pdf from World Obesity Federation: https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/C...
and so the natural response is to shut all the gyms and send little Hitlers out to interrogate people exercising in the fresh air......, no wait that's stupid isn't it. Article said:
Obesity has been linked to a higher risk of severe Covid-19 and death from the disease.
And a World Obesity Federation report claims that around nine in 10 Covid-19 deaths have occurred in countries with high obesity rates.
This includes the UK which has the third-highest Covid death rate in the world and the fourth-highest obesity rate.
Link to article: https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/national/19133...And a World Obesity Federation report claims that around nine in 10 Covid-19 deaths have occurred in countries with high obesity rates.
This includes the UK which has the third-highest Covid death rate in the world and the fourth-highest obesity rate.
Link to 227 page pdf from World Obesity Federation: https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/C...
CrutyRammers said:
Graveworm said:
isaldiri said:
Well you've just made a great pitch for much less restrictions. Historically we haven't given a damn about 20k plus excess deaths over winter. If lots of restrictions only reduces the deaths by 10% then for 10-15k extra deaths it's pretty bloody clear we shouldn't have bothered given the costs involved with said restrictions.
The only differences were North Dakota mandated masks, and South Dakota tested fewer people. Plenty in South Dakota actually wore masks but not as many as North. So if more widespread mask wearing saved 10 percent was it worth it? https://www.grandforksherald.com/newsmd/coronaviru...
R-t6t6s said:
danllama said:
R-t6t6s said:
danllama said:
R-t6t6s said:
Surely if 52% of the population want something, then they have to get it and we don't worry about the minority as they are moaners? That's what I heard anyway, or was that another topic....
Have we had a vote on lockdowns and restrictions? I must have missed it. ks. If we had a nationwide referendum on this issue beforehand it would never have happened. Who the hell would vote for stripping away rights and livelihoods? That's why this appalling government have had to coerce and legislate us into submission. It's not a suggestion that lockdowns are anti democratic, they intrinsically are! At the heart of democracy is freedom.So your view of a democracy is that we are free to do as we please, or do you agree that there are normally limits imposed on that freedom?
danllama said:
No. I'm happy to see evidence. Have you got or do you know of any evidence that the majority of this country supports lockdowns? You say the evidence is against me, so let's see it?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/05/brits-support-national-lockdown-jan-2021Sad to say, but we're in a minority.
basherX said:
YouGov? The polling company founded by the Vaccine Minister??!! Is that proof?basherX said:
danllama said:
No. I'm happy to see evidence. Have you got or do you know of any evidence that the majority of this country supports lockdowns? You say the evidence is against me, so let's see it?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/05/brits-support-national-lockdown-jan-2021Sad to say, but we're in a minority.
basherX said:
danllama said:
No. I'm happy to see evidence. Have you got or do you know of any evidence that the majority of this country supports lockdowns? You say the evidence is against me, so let's see it?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/05/brits-support-national-lockdown-jan-2021Sad to say, but we're in a minority.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/commen...
And we're a nation of fatties like the US.
The irony of shutting down many healthy activities like gyms and pools. Eat out to help out (where was workout to help out?) And the noticeable increase in ads like the KFC one, where you don't even have to lift your greasy arse out of the divot in your sofa to get a nice bucket of heart attack direct to gob.
We've shut down the country for a virus that is almost innocuous to anyone under 65. Yet they're quite happy to have over a 1/3 of people eating their way to an early grave.
And we're a nation of fatties like the US.
The irony of shutting down many healthy activities like gyms and pools. Eat out to help out (where was workout to help out?) And the noticeable increase in ads like the KFC one, where you don't even have to lift your greasy arse out of the divot in your sofa to get a nice bucket of heart attack direct to gob.
We've shut down the country for a virus that is almost innocuous to anyone under 65. Yet they're quite happy to have over a 1/3 of people eating their way to an early grave.
MEC said:
basherX said:
YouGov? The polling company founded by the Vaccine Minister??!! Is that proof?2. Yes, I maybe frustrated with lockdown but I'm not demented enough to believe that one of the UK's leading polling agencies is part of the Illuminati.
Crikey, it's almost as if people don't want balance in the discussion.
So, instead of all the shrieking, where's the objective, statistical (i.e. non-anecdotal) evidence that a majority of Brits are anti-lockdown?
The reason I posted that poll is not, as some of our delicate little flowers presume, to give some evidence that ongoing lockdown is a good idea but rather to highlight the size of the challenge in expecting politicians to unwind it quickly. Jesus.
So, instead of all the shrieking, where's the objective, statistical (i.e. non-anecdotal) evidence that a majority of Brits are anti-lockdown?
The reason I posted that poll is not, as some of our delicate little flowers presume, to give some evidence that ongoing lockdown is a good idea but rather to highlight the size of the challenge in expecting politicians to unwind it quickly. Jesus.
Stig said:
basherX said:
danllama said:
No. I'm happy to see evidence. Have you got or do you know of any evidence that the majority of this country supports lockdowns? You say the evidence is against me, so let's see it?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/05/brits-support-national-lockdown-jan-2021Sad to say, but we're in a minority.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's not doing those polls paid for by HMG If you read the polls they are very critical of the government so if they just make stuff up, as you imply, without foundation, then why wouldn't they also make that up?.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/pkv90of78k/SunOnSunday...
basherX said:
Crikey, it's almost as if people don't want balance in the discussion.
So, instead of all the shrieking, where's the objective, statistical (i.e. non-anecdotal) evidence that a majority of Brits are anti-lockdown?
The reason I posted that poll is not, as some of our delicate little flowers presume, to give some evidence that ongoing lockdown is a good idea but rather to highlight the size of the challenge in expecting politicians to unwind it quickly. Jesus.
I wonder how much of the polling reflects what happens in things like exit polls... Ie they tell the nice people what they want to hear and then go vote for who they really want. Remember when exit polls showed labour had it down pat, then when the vote came in they'd be soundly beaten instead.So, instead of all the shrieking, where's the objective, statistical (i.e. non-anecdotal) evidence that a majority of Brits are anti-lockdown?
The reason I posted that poll is not, as some of our delicate little flowers presume, to give some evidence that ongoing lockdown is a good idea but rather to highlight the size of the challenge in expecting politicians to unwind it quickly. Jesus.
I mean last weekend when it was sunny I've never seen so many people use the park. Everyone was out. Large queue for the enterprising ice cream van, all the swings and slides occupied, 5 a side footy on the playing court, large groups out on the grass with hot drinks, skate park getting plenty of skin on it etc. Like a summer's day almost.
Pretty sure you're not supposed to be doing any of that right now. But how many of those, when asked later, maybe by a online survey or door knocker, would say yes we follow the rules and don't want to release too soon to slow the spread?
It's a British thing? Tell the nice people from the government what they want to hear for an easy life and then turn around and do what you wanted anyway.
I dunno. Look at what people actually do rather than what they say they are doing.
I wil add, that the above is actually very short sighted. Telling them what they want to hear, for an easy life, isn't helpful in the long run.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 4th March 17:54
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I wouldn't dispute any of that, but the logical extension of that argument is that it is impossible to demonstrate anything other than widespread support for lockdown but that all evidence that shows that should be disregarded due to bias. That feels a bit tinfoily, doesn't it? Surely, if there's majority objection to lockdown that would be demonstrable empirically somehow?(And, yes, furlough changes people's view but in the presence of furlough we need to look at people's views as they are, not as they'd hypothetically be).
basherX said:
danllama said:
No. I'm happy to see evidence. Have you got or do you know of any evidence that the majority of this country supports lockdowns? You say the evidence is against me, so let's see it?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/05/brits-support-national-lockdown-jan-2021Sad to say, but we're in a minority.
That's a mandate for lockdowns? This hugely damaging exercise on our rights and lives?
I don't accept that as evidence of a majority supporting this farce.
I do appreciate you sharing the poll but that's not the conclusive evidence of a majority that the other bloke was telling us existed.
Edited by danllama on Thursday 4th March 17:54
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