Grads more likely to become cleaners
Discussion
Fittster said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why do engineers always seem to whinge that they don't get paid enough for their brilliance?
Engineers clearly aren't in it for the money otherwise you would never study it at Uni in the first place. Unless, people sign up for the career without ever checking on some very elementary basics such us how much will I get paid.
Or is it just that there is plenty of money in engineering but all the engineers on PH are crap?
And yet engineering companies are always whining in the press they can't get the staff. Engineers clearly aren't in it for the money otherwise you would never study it at Uni in the first place. Unless, people sign up for the career without ever checking on some very elementary basics such us how much will I get paid.
Or is it just that there is plenty of money in engineering but all the engineers on PH are crap?
Strange how organisations that pay a decent rate don't have trouble with recruitment.
All engineering firms will whinge, just like all other firms, that there are not enough grads. The more grads there are, the less you have to pay them. If you are in an industry you want as many people as possible going into that industry as it drives wages down.
Engineering has clearly never paid (on average) as well as other roles which areguably require the same level of training and intelligence, so I can't see the point in knowing this and then going in to that industry and complaining later about the wages. It is somewhat like buying a home next to a race track and then whinging about the noise.
Plus, if someone has the whit to become a properly qualified engineer then 'profession' is a choice for that person not a trap, so chose a proffession that pays more if that is what is important to you.
First point: Chap with 15yr old dau who want to study control systems engineering. Section her. Now.
Second point: Engineering is now a major export for the UK. Not the engineering of products pre se, but the export of engineers themselves. British trained engineers are in great demand around the world and you are well paid. This is a good thing to me, it shows how highly we are thought of, it should be celebrated and used in good PR for us. Beats me why it isnt.
Second point: Engineering is now a major export for the UK. Not the engineering of products pre se, but the export of engineers themselves. British trained engineers are in great demand around the world and you are well paid. This is a good thing to me, it shows how highly we are thought of, it should be celebrated and used in good PR for us. Beats me why it isnt.
One other issue is this : in Germany u can only call yourself "engineer" if you are professionally qualified ("Herr Engineer"?).
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
alfaman said:
One other issue is this : in Germany u can only call yourself "engineer" if you are professionally qualified ("Herr Engineer"?).
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
Isn't this why you have Charters?In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
It must be the same with surveyors and accountants. Someone who looks up the price of flats on NetHousePrices can call themselves a surveyor and someone who instructs Excel to add column A to column B can call themselves and accountant but none of these people can call themselves a Chartered Surveyor or Accountant without the correct qualifications etc.
It must be similar in engineering? There must be a mechanism to clearly distinguish between an engineer and a bloke in a polo shirt with the letters 'BT' on the back?
DonkeyApple said:
alfaman said:
One other issue is this : in Germany u can only call yourself "engineer" if you are professionally qualified ("Herr Engineer"?).
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
Isn't this why you have Charters?In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
It must be the same with surveyors and accountants. Someone who looks up the price of flats on NetHousePrices can call themselves a surveyor and someone who instructs Excel to add column A to column B can call themselves and accountant but none of these people can call themselves a Chartered Surveyor or Accountant without the correct qualifications etc.
It must be similar in engineering? There must be a mechanism to clearly distinguish between an engineer and a bloke in a polo shirt with the letters 'BT' on the back?
Not really and to be honest it doesnt really make much difference, its only an ego boost thing for some engineers to whinge that the washing machine repair chappy is on the same level as them in terms of job title.
Not to mention the professional institutions are a bunch of muppets. I point blank refuse to pay any membership fees to any of them for being utterly bloody useless.
Not to mention the professional institutions are a bunch of muppets. I point blank refuse to pay any membership fees to any of them for being utterly bloody useless.
GroundEffect said:
DonkeyApple said:
alfaman said:
One other issue is this : in Germany u can only call yourself "engineer" if you are professionally qualified ("Herr Engineer"?).
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
Isn't this why you have Charters?In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
It must be the same with surveyors and accountants. Someone who looks up the price of flats on NetHousePrices can call themselves a surveyor and someone who instructs Excel to add column A to column B can call themselves and accountant but none of these people can call themselves a Chartered Surveyor or Accountant without the correct qualifications etc.
It must be similar in engineering? There must be a mechanism to clearly distinguish between an engineer and a bloke in a polo shirt with the letters 'BT' on the back?
No one of above baboon intellect is going to confuse Isambard Kingdom Brunel with Dave, a bloke in a blue van with a collection of very small screwdrivers.
DonkeyApple said:
GroundEffect said:
DonkeyApple said:
alfaman said:
One other issue is this : in Germany u can only call yourself "engineer" if you are professionally qualified ("Herr Engineer"?).
In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
Isn't this why you have Charters?In the UK anyone can call
themselves "engineer " - unfortunately the professional bodies don't prevent this, and it massively devalues the qualification and profession.
It must be the same with surveyors and accountants. Someone who looks up the price of flats on NetHousePrices can call themselves a surveyor and someone who instructs Excel to add column A to column B can call themselves and accountant but none of these people can call themselves a Chartered Surveyor or Accountant without the correct qualifications etc.
It must be similar in engineering? There must be a mechanism to clearly distinguish between an engineer and a bloke in a polo shirt with the letters 'BT' on the back?
No one of above baboon intellect is going to confuse Isambard Kingdom Brunel with Dave, a bloke in a blue van with a collection of very small screwdrivers.
And regarding low pay - this has been solved through the import of mainly Indian/chinese engineers; or out sourcing to these countries. Our youngest employee is now approaching 28. We have not hired a graduate for years; but we have set up a 'resource centre' in Asia to 'better be able to fight for contracts in a competative environment'.
vonuber said:
I am a Chartered Engineer. It wasn't worth it - not for working in this country, but it will be if/when I go abroad. People have no idea what it means or takes, and the professional bodies (yes ICE I am looking at you) are a complete waste of time.
And regarding low pay - this has been solved through the import of mainly Indian/chinese engineers; or out sourcing to these countries. Our youngest employee is now approaching 28. We have not hired a graduate for years; but we have set up a 'resource centre' in Asia to 'better be able to fight for contracts in a competative environment'.
And that's the problem not just in engineering. I work in banking, and all the onshore jobs are either front office (Sales/Trading), Projects or Subject Matter Experts/Managers, so there is no way in for grads unless they are good enough to go straight to Trading (which few are). So in ten years time, when everyone else moves up the ladder/retires, we will end up with an offshore workforce doing processing, reliant on onshore to tell them what to do/how to fix stuff with no one new coming through the ranks to take over. It's then, along with a devalued pound and wage deflation in the UK/inflation in India, that you will see these sorts of jobs coming back on-shore. But it will be a tough decade for our youth, unless they are very very good, or very very lucky.And regarding low pay - this has been solved through the import of mainly Indian/chinese engineers; or out sourcing to these countries. Our youngest employee is now approaching 28. We have not hired a graduate for years; but we have set up a 'resource centre' in Asia to 'better be able to fight for contracts in a competative environment'.
DonkeyApple said:
Go for it but never have the fear of not going later. Whether it is a year or two, five or ten, don't close the door on it as the time at the right uni will open new doors and change lives.
It sounds awful but Uni is about life, life skills and meeting a totally different group of people that hugely broaden your horizons and change the way you look at life.
There is no point in going if you are not convinced about it and also there is no point in someone going to their local uni or a uni which isn't diverse.
Go out, get a job. Work for a year but always, always keep your eyes open and regularly think about whether you should go to Uni. you will when working find yourself amongst people who will tell you that you have done the right thing etc but they are obviously wrong as they have no idea who you are, they are the people we all meet in life who want to keep everyone down with them and their failed lives.
Next year, I suspect, will transpire to be a great year to go to Uni. The shock of fees will pit a lot of people off and those who do go will be more focussed etc.
Regardless what you decide, good luck.
Just to add a bit of support to that. At 18 I left college and got an apprenticeship, admittedly because my grades at A level weren't the best (but in difficult subjects such as Maths, Physics and Electronics). During my apprenticeship I got a foundation degree. Which I'll tell you now is not worth much on its own. However 8 years later (I'm 26 now) I'm topping that up to a bachelor degree with the open uni.It sounds awful but Uni is about life, life skills and meeting a totally different group of people that hugely broaden your horizons and change the way you look at life.
There is no point in going if you are not convinced about it and also there is no point in someone going to their local uni or a uni which isn't diverse.
Go out, get a job. Work for a year but always, always keep your eyes open and regularly think about whether you should go to Uni. you will when working find yourself amongst people who will tell you that you have done the right thing etc but they are obviously wrong as they have no idea who you are, they are the people we all meet in life who want to keep everyone down with them and their failed lives.
Next year, I suspect, will transpire to be a great year to go to Uni. The shock of fees will pit a lot of people off and those who do go will be more focussed etc.
Regardless what you decide, good luck.
So don't write it off completely but as above, keep your options open. I'm actually going for the bachelor more because you need a degree to get visa's in some countries to work there rather than for career/money reasons.
Also in this respect a PhD in superturbo maths is no more valuable than a BA in basket weaving when it comes to getting a visa.
Bing o said:
And that's the problem not just in engineering. I work in banking, and all the onshore jobs are either front office (Sales/Trading), Projects or Subject Matter Experts/Managers, so there is no way in for grads unless they are good enough to go straight to Trading (which few are). So in ten years time, when everyone else moves up the ladder/retires, we will end up with an offshore workforce doing processing, reliant on onshore to tell them what to do/how to fix stuff with no one new coming through the ranks to take over. It's then, along with a devalued pound and wage deflation in the UK/inflation in India, that you will see these sorts of jobs coming back on-shore. But it will be a tough decade for our youth, unless they are very very good, or very very lucky.
To be honest Bing O, that is what exporting is all about and always has been. There is no Market for unskilled expats as you have as much unskilled labour as you'll ever need in the host country.
Most people think overseas pays more because it values you more highly, but as you know the premium is mostly the inconvenience.
Few expats stay out. Some become so hooked that when they return they can't fit in and have to go back. HK was always a very good example and KL to a lesser degree. Basically, old winos who had a strong social group there had nothing when they came home. Or those who come down with yellow fever on a permanent basis.
However, for the vast majority, expat life works in a very standard way. When kids hit 10 or parents start dying this usually triggers the return.
In banking at the moment there are a large number of involuntary expats from the 2008 shakeout. Once they have stopped talking about how the UK is dead and finished and the Market properly recovers, most will be heading back.
Also, the other important factor to consider is that not as many people are leaving as people tend to think. It's just that because the pay tends to be higher and it should be tax free that it is talked about more and seen as some kind of holy grail.
There has always been a brain drain from the UK and in general it is a sign of a good education system, broad minds and global competitiveness. I'd be more worried if the exodus slowed.
DonkeyApple said:
To be honest Bing O, that is what exporting is all about and always has been.
There is no Market for unskilled expats as you have as much unskilled labour as you'll ever need in the host country.
Most people think overseas pays more because it values you more highly, but as you know the premium is mostly the inconvenience.
Few expats stay out. Some become so hooked that when they return they can't fit in and have to go back. HK was always a very good example and KL to a lesser degree. Basically, old winos who had a strong social group there had nothing when they came home. Or those who come down with yellow fever on a permanent basis.
However, for the vast majority, expat life works in a very standard way. When kids hit 10 or parents start dying this usually triggers the return.
In banking at the moment there are a large number of involuntary expats from the 2008 shakeout. Once they have stopped talking about how the UK is dead and finished and the Market properly recovers, most will be heading back.
Also, the other important factor to consider is that not as many people are leaving as people tend to think. It's just that because the pay tends to be higher and it should be tax free that it is talked about more and seen as some kind of holy grail.
There has always been a brain drain from the UK and in general it is a sign of a good education system, broad minds and global competitiveness. I'd be more worried if the exodus slowed.
Well done for turning my comments about off-shoring (ie India/Manilla/China) into barbs about how expats are failures, which I am sure we all are (rich, tanned, but ultimately failures missing the 8 month winters in the UK). There is no Market for unskilled expats as you have as much unskilled labour as you'll ever need in the host country.
Most people think overseas pays more because it values you more highly, but as you know the premium is mostly the inconvenience.
Few expats stay out. Some become so hooked that when they return they can't fit in and have to go back. HK was always a very good example and KL to a lesser degree. Basically, old winos who had a strong social group there had nothing when they came home. Or those who come down with yellow fever on a permanent basis.
However, for the vast majority, expat life works in a very standard way. When kids hit 10 or parents start dying this usually triggers the return.
In banking at the moment there are a large number of involuntary expats from the 2008 shakeout. Once they have stopped talking about how the UK is dead and finished and the Market properly recovers, most will be heading back.
Also, the other important factor to consider is that not as many people are leaving as people tend to think. It's just that because the pay tends to be higher and it should be tax free that it is talked about more and seen as some kind of holy grail.
There has always been a brain drain from the UK and in general it is a sign of a good education system, broad minds and global competitiveness. I'd be more worried if the exodus slowed.
My point was what junior roles exist in London, NY etc these days compared to what was there 5-10-15 years ago? I started as a PnL monkey for an asset manager in the City (Grad Role), and have worked myself into my current failure role in Asia - my point was that how would a UK grad get that PnL monkey role and work their way up, now someone in Manilla or Mumbai is doing that same role? What happens in 10 years when the managers at my age pack it in or go off and do someting important and fulfilling instead? Are there a load of guys and gals in India capable of coming in and running transformational projects, building relationships with the business and all the other stuff you only really get from growing up working in financial hubs on-shore.
I don't think that banking/finance is the only industry that this is happening in either, this is just based on my experiences...
vonuber said:
People have no idea what it means or takes, and the professional bodies (yes ICE I am looking at you) are a complete waste of time.
.
Agree with you totally re ICE : The year I first graduated .. they massively increased the requirements to become chartered [ "post Chilver" ] - adding a really onerous PE2 process to the PE1 , plus quarterly assessments from graduation..
... well after 5 years of busting my nuts with courses, exams , interviews , PE1 and PE2 .. I became fully chartered Yaaaayyyyy [one of only 20 or so in my year of 3000+ Civ Eng graduates in the UK ... so less than 1% made it to full qualification under "post chilver" in 5 years !]
The [misguided ] idea was a super-tough process would improve the status and ranking of Civil Engineers...over and above the already tough pre- Chilver process [ argghhh !]
The year after I qualified ......the ICE scrapped the "full on" post Chilver requirements - they realised the process and exams were too onerous and tough for the vast majority and were putting off candidates , and werent really needed by employers... and the pay was still s
te.I would have been enraged
if I had still been in Engineering - but fortunately had left the profession to go into business / industry by then [post MBA]
Bing o said:
Well done for turning my comments about off-shoring (ie India/Manilla/China) into barbs about how expats are failures, which I am sure we all are (rich, tanned, but ultimately failures missing the 8 month winters in the UK).
My point was what junior roles exist in London, NY etc these days compared to what was there 5-10-15 years ago? I started as a PnL monkey for an asset manager in the City (Grad Role), and have worked myself into my current failure role in Asia - my point was that how would a UK grad get that PnL monkey role and work their way up, now someone in Manilla or Mumbai is doing that same role? What happens in 10 years when the managers at my age pack it in or go off and do someting important and fulfilling instead? Are there a load of guys and gals in India capable of coming in and running transformational projects, building relationships with the business and all the other stuff you only really get from growing up working in financial hubs on-shore.
I don't think that banking/finance is the only industry that this is happening in either, this is just based on my experiences...
What are you on about? Just where have I said this? My point was what junior roles exist in London, NY etc these days compared to what was there 5-10-15 years ago? I started as a PnL monkey for an asset manager in the City (Grad Role), and have worked myself into my current failure role in Asia - my point was that how would a UK grad get that PnL monkey role and work their way up, now someone in Manilla or Mumbai is doing that same role? What happens in 10 years when the managers at my age pack it in or go off and do someting important and fulfilling instead? Are there a load of guys and gals in India capable of coming in and running transformational projects, building relationships with the business and all the other stuff you only really get from growing up working in financial hubs on-shore.
I don't think that banking/finance is the only industry that this is happening in either, this is just based on my experiences...
I'm an ex expat and nearly all my family have been or still are.
Back office roles are mostly local and always have been. No purpose in paying to ship out a clerk when locals can do the job for a fraction.
Still s
t loads of clerks in London. One of the key roles of exporting is to permit the company to retain competitive advantage over local firms. The last thing a US or European bank or oil firm wants to do is train up and employ locals for the front office. Locals who will ultimately retain these skills in their environment. Exporting isn't just about bringing in skills that aren't there locally but also about keeping it that way.
As for 2008 in our industry we all know that large numbers of heads were offered the door or the airport.
alfaman said:
DonkeyApple said:
. Basically, old winos who had a strong social group .
..bit of an outdated and prejudiced view of the expat lifestyle ???..you get young people too....
My mate did a few years as an ex-pat in the Gulf. The blokes at least had their jobs to prevent them from full-time numb-out, but the women, preculded from most work (by local customs etc.) and without a home to fuss about (all were rented and fully staffed) many became Stepford androids, with nothing to hang their lives on other than the activities of their offspring and planning/discussing the next/last shopping trip to Dubai.
alfaman said:
..bit of an outdated and prejudiced view of the expat lifestyle ???
..you get young people too....
..you get young people too....
Just potential winos in waiting.
If you go out with family then you usually just live the same way as before, slightly suburban and leisure time involves the kids. It just tends to be better in many ways than being back home.
If you go out young and single then the social aspect involves a lot of booze and the lack of single women means going local and having the time off your life.
The ascendency of US banking has lead to the real excesses being of the past and I think finance tends to be much much heavier than oil or military but it is all too easy to wake up one morning a realise that you have aged far more quickly than you had planned.
Digga said:
The blokes at least have their jobs to prevent them from full-time numb-out, but the women dont have much to do if they aren't working .... with the abundance of cheap Filipina maids and serviced condo facilities, with nothing to hang their lives on other than the activities of their offspring, a swim in the pool, walking the dog [ oops, no the maids do that... ] and planning/discussing the next/last shopping trip along Orchard Road or visit to the Tanglin or British club .
I have edited for Singapore Edited by alfaman on Wednesday 31st August 09:24
alfaman said:
Digga said:
The blokes at least have their jobs to prevent them from full-time numb-out, but the women dont have much to do with the abundance of cheap Filipino maids and full condo facilities, with nothing to hang their lives on other than the activities of their offspring, walking the dog [ oops, no the maids do that too ... ] and planning/discussing the next/last shopping trip along Orchard Road or visit to the Tanglin or British club .
I have edited for Singapore Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff