How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 14)
Discussion
pgh said:
I've asked Helicopter123 previously why that poster is racist. It seems the answer is that it's very similar to a magic-eye picture, you either see it or you don't. Beyond that, it apparently can't be explained.
Be grateful you've not been inflicted with Farage Derangement Syndrome Symptoms include:
Hates Farage but needs to discuss him wherever possible (last part is very flexible)
Sporadic dyslexia (Farraaage, Farrago, etc)
Encyclopedic knowledge of Farage rhetoric, which is everywhere, apparently
Are the FDS'ers the only people keeping him 'relevant'?
Helicopter123 said:
We actually, demonstrably are at breaking point.Where Farage was, perhaps, in correct, was to 'blame' this on immigration, rather than successive, idiotic governments who failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure. not least the NHS (as we see right now).
You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
Digga said:
Helicopter123 said:
We actually, demonstrably are at breaking point.Where Farage was, perhaps, in correct, was to 'blame' this on immigration, rather than successive, idiotic governments who failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure. not least the NHS (as we see right now).
You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
Digga said:
Helicopter123 said:
We actually, demonstrably are at breaking point.Where Farage was, perhaps, in correct, was to 'blame' this on immigration, rather than successive, idiotic governments who failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure. not least the NHS (as we see right now).
You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
don'tbesilly said:
Digga said:
Helicopter123 said:
We actually, demonstrably are at breaking point.Where Farage was, perhaps, in correct, was to 'blame' this on immigration, rather than successive, idiotic governments who failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure. not least the NHS (as we see right now).
You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
Adding more people who are net financial recipients from the State means less services to go around everyone.
One might consider - just how many car washes manned by 20 people charging £6 the country really needs.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Monday 30th March 09:45
The statistics on job and people movements once this is over is going to be fascinating.
In theory it should flush out the black economy who cant claim any government support.
I think we will find the vast majority are working legitimately and remain in the UK.
Mainland Europe is going to be a mess with even greater movement of people from the poorest countries and a resultant rise in tensions as they compete for work.
In theory it should flush out the black economy who cant claim any government support.
I think we will find the vast majority are working legitimately and remain in the UK.
Mainland Europe is going to be a mess with even greater movement of people from the poorest countries and a resultant rise in tensions as they compete for work.
DeepEnd said:
I agree if it had remained a trading bloc only brexit would not have happened.
I’m not sure what is controversial about this.
There is nothing controversial about this at all.I’m not sure what is controversial about this.
It is at the heart of why a majority of people voted to leave the EU.
It's pleasing that you do actually understand it (whether a new found revelation, a long held appreciation or even something where the dots still aren't quite joining up).
Helicopter123 said:
You can hold perfectly sensible reasons why immigration is unwelcome without being a racist, which makes it all the more odd that no-one want to speak about it. This could be down to the Farage connection and that awful poster from 2016 but we all need to move on. If immigration (border control) is the issue then how will this play out in our negotiations with the EU? What is it that we are seeking to change, and how will it benefit us all?
The reason I get angry about immigration, is that much of the "nods and winks" on hear come across as being of the Farage variety.
Plenty has been spoken out about uncontrolled immigration on these threads.The reason I get angry about immigration, is that much of the "nods and winks" on hear come across as being of the Farage variety.
The problem is that the nods and winks aren't from the people speaking out about it. They are from people like you who then wish to decry that speaking out as racism (explicitly or otherwise). It's people like you who are fixated on Farage and his poster.
Uncontrolled immigration is not a good thing. If it were, more than the 27 member states of the EU would be doing it globally, and the EU would be doing it with more than the 27 member states.
It's as simple as that.
Immigration control wasn't the only factor in the vote to leave though. Far from it. Have a huddle with Deepend to discuss and maybe you too will have a St Paul on the road to Damascus moment.
Then again...
(How is our desire not to be part of that particular "freedom" going to impact trade negotiations? In exactly the same way it impacted the trade negotiations with the other parties the EU has arrangements with. One presume you don't believe the EU has uncontrolled immigration with the likes of Canada or Japan (to pick two recent examples) do you? If not, why do you think the controlled immigration question should even be mentioned during our trade negotiation?)
soupdragon1 said:
powerstroke said:
DeepEnd said:
Well if you go hunting for the crap!! what else would you expect ? , same as people with the guardian links it just makes normal humans go Hmm ...
don'tbesilly said:
Digga said:
Where Farage was, perhaps, in correct, was to 'blame' this on immigration, rather than successive, idiotic governments who failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure. not least the NHS (as we see right now).
You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
Point/s well made and generally ignored by most on the other side of the debate. If it's not ignored it's brushed to one side by the shouts of it's nonsense, and it will have no impact on the existing population and it's the Govt's responsibility to provide the required resource and infrastructure, or what exists is more than adequate.You cannot keep inflating the population and expect it to have no bearing on standards of living and quality of life.
Increasing the population in the right way could continue to be done. Increasing it with significant net contributors for example (as another blunt measure) would have hugely positive impacts.
Immigration is brought into the fray as it's one element of population growth you can fully control (the illegal version aside). Unfortunately you cannot do this with the indigenous population. You can only encourage. But that in itself does not mean you shouldn't control immigration. The less your indigenous population can be encouraged, the more careful you actually need to be on immigration.
Murph7355 said:
soupdragon1 said:
powerstroke said:
DeepEnd said:
Well if you go hunting for the crap!! what else would you expect ? , same as people with the guardian links it just makes normal humans go Hmm ...
Is Deltona coming back? interested to hear his response on my last post about whom has the errr, I dunno less systematic risky regulatory framework (versus political ambition) in recent years.....
Moody's suggests that EU corporate high yield default rates could increase over 300% given Corona. That's a whopper if you have to realise it under IFRS9.
That last sentence is a tad sensationlest, but defaults are expected to increase from 1.5% to 5%... still big enough, waaaay big enough to worry about. Especially as they took cheap money to begin with.
Need a fire break to prevent a doom loop.
The problem is, if that High Yield debt drops out the "acceptable collateral" framework, we end up with a continent wide Lehman's problem.
The ECB or the governments ARE going to have to step in.
It's Blythe's point, but also another reason why a "cut nose off to spite face" BREXIT deal is a nonsense. Both sides need a sensible deal; ideally Canada++.
Moody's suggests that EU corporate high yield default rates could increase over 300% given Corona. That's a whopper if you have to realise it under IFRS9.
That last sentence is a tad sensationlest, but defaults are expected to increase from 1.5% to 5%... still big enough, waaaay big enough to worry about. Especially as they took cheap money to begin with.
Need a fire break to prevent a doom loop.
The problem is, if that High Yield debt drops out the "acceptable collateral" framework, we end up with a continent wide Lehman's problem.
The ECB or the governments ARE going to have to step in.
It's Blythe's point, but also another reason why a "cut nose off to spite face" BREXIT deal is a nonsense. Both sides need a sensible deal; ideally Canada++.
Helicopter123 said:
Garibaldi_red said:
Helicopter123 said:
You’ve made that up - why?
No need to make anything up. It has been confirmed by many people - perhaps you forgot you did it? Unlike your claims about immigration.
Sent back to isolation once more.
Unfortunately will soon mutate into the next multiple id and return to infect again.
Incurable.
Interesting straw in the wind:
https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
psi310398 said:
Interesting straw in the wind:
https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
Its going to get worse.https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
The crisis cost is colossal, and most affected countries are looking at 15-20% increases in national debt to fund the response. There is a significant call for Corona Bonds and EU-wide debt mutualisation - but the Netherlands and Germany are not yet budging on it. The Netherlands has suggested 20bn in mutual support, but that won't touch the sides and is a rounding error.
They (Italy, Spain and France even Greece is chipping in) don't want to go to the ESM, given the conditions that come with it; and these are probably less stringent than the reforms Germany / Netherlands will ask for. Lagarde, seems to be on the side of mutualisation, so there as a 3rd dynamic at play.
If they don't find a fudge for this, we are going to see something pretty monumental in EU history. Plus they have to deal concurrently with the 2nd largest economy in GDP terms leaving the bloc.
Oh, and everyone thinks there is going to be an extension; there are NO meetings on BREXIT currently undertaken in Whitehall; there is no bandwidth other than Corona. He just hasn't called it yet. My monies on May - has to be done before end of June.
Guy going for his more EU power grab as per. https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/opinion...
Von Der Leyen apologises, then does nothing. https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news...
Von Der Leyen apologises, then does nothing. https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news...
psi310398 said:
Interesting straw in the wind:
https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
Matt Goodwin just stuck this on Twitterhttps://order-order.com/2020/04/02/salvini-ramps-a...
It certainly chimes with the mood of many neighbours of mine with whom I'm in touch in the North of Italy.
They feel completely abandoned and, more worryingly, are drawing the conclusion that German dogmatism on the Euro left the country less resilient than it would otherwise be. Obviously this is tendentious and seventy-five years of appallingly poor choices by Italian body-politic will have more to do with it than the ECB, but that's not the feeling.
There are, of course, still many Europhiles in Italy but they seem to be keeping their heads down more and more...There is not much love for the EU in Italian public discourse at the moment.
New. And this should worry the EU
-> 72% of Italians say EU has not contributed in any way to addressing the #coronavirus crisis
-> 77% feel this won't change, the EU will not bring benefits
-> Trust has shed 9 points; now just 25% trust the EU
https://t.co/ZR3WmtroXE
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