The state of UK's education and why employers are weary
Discussion
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Does not seem to help things when everyone claims to have Dyslexia these days.
I can't seem to let one day go without someone mentioning that they have Dyslexia.
Makes the very rare person who DOES actually have it look like a liar.
Dyslexia confuses the matter somewhat. It can be a genuine condition, but as you've said too many people claiming it will effectively devalue the condition.I can't seem to let one day go without someone mentioning that they have Dyslexia.
Makes the very rare person who DOES actually have it look like a liar.
A friend/colleague turned out to suffer from Dyslexia. He was intelligent and hardworking, but due to dyslexia he was incapable of doing his job and eventually got kicked out. An ex many years ago was diagnosed after she'd left school - set back her education years, but she eventually gained financial qualifications and was working her way towards a much better job.
My main irritation with grammar and spelling is the way that txt spk or l33t speak is worming its way into some people vocabulary. Text style speak was understandably used when SMS was short - just one message, 160 characters to use. But now with more e-mail and longer SMS available, there is no excuse. Its pure laziness.
Of my two step kids, the elder daughter uses it regularly, and that she's unlikely to ever work anywhere better than McDonalds getting in food orders speaks volumes. The step son is definitely more intelligent, rarely uses text style messaging, uses complete words and sentences, typically well constructed.
SWMBOs daughter is a delight - 9 years old, and incredibly good with writing and spelling. My younger son (8 years old) isn't quite as good with the english, but is turning into a bit of a mathematics genius. As long as he's got the basics of written language sorted, he'll hopefully do well.
Overall though, I do despair with the state of "our" language. It does evolve, but at the moment its being completely ruined.
Tangent Police said:
Ofsted is a total and utter waste of time. An exercise in bulls
t which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink.
I disagree. As a parent it provides some way of benchmarking schools against a set of common criteria. Not all of us are able to successfully work out what makes a good school. Back in the early 80's my primary school in Modbury was held up as a great school, the reality was there were plenty of Janner schools that were better and started with kids that had less advantageous upbringing. t which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink. The problem with any benchmarking is that you have to have the right criteria and it can never measure everything. Setting a criteria makes it a target or outcome and it does seem that it has proliferated throughout education, public sector, business.
[quote]
When I was at a school in plimuff (which should for all intents and purposes be bulldozed into a hole, complete with staff and kids)
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Does not seem to help things when everyone claims to have Dyslexia these days.
I can't seem to let one day go without someone mentioning that they have Dyslexia.
Makes the very rare person who DOES actually have it look like a liar.
Come on now...you're forgetting aspergers syndrome. Didn't you know that, as well as being dyslexic, most kids are slightly autistic these days and that's why schools have trouble teaching them! Of course!!! Send them to the educational psychologist...have it confirmed and 'hey presto', nobody has to take the rap for any real problems that need addressing...not the parents...not the school...and, obviously, NOT the child!! Let them underachieve and leave school with nothing...great approach!I can't seem to let one day go without someone mentioning that they have Dyslexia.
Makes the very rare person who DOES actually have it look like a liar.
When I was at school, the majority of pupils were very bright and could read and write. There were only a small amount who couldn't read very well and were a bit slower than the rest of us. There was usually a special group to help them catch up. It seems to be the opposite now and only a few are smart and the rest are just kept in the classrooms to...er...stop them wandering the streets? Now, the special groups are for the smart kids and the others are dragged through the school until they leave.
My son was diagnosed with ADHD and aspergers years back and I didn't believe a word of it! He's just not academic that's all. I did agree with the idea that he had ADHD...he was a very 'lively' child and never stopped moving about or talking! It turned out that he had a food allergy to sugars and colourings. Once we sorted that out, the mood swings and anger stopped. It was amazing. Most children suffer from this because we pump so much stuff into food that shouldn't be there. Years ago, we bought food and it went mouldy after a day or two because it was made from natural stuff! Our food was pretty plain and boring to look at, but at least it didn't send us mad and then leave us crashing down as its ingredients gradually left our bodies. What do we give to our kids when they are unhappy? Sweets!! Yay...vicious circle here we come!!
When my son was only SEVEN (yes 7) we were also sent to a psychiatrist with him....YES WE WERE!! The very nice gentleman told us to push for statementing and get him extra help. He told us that he was fed up with the particular school sending children to him because they didn't want to have to use extra resources on extra teaching staff and waste money. We were gobsmacked that he actually told us he felt like this and, it was then that I started to feel very uneasy about my son's education. My daughters didn't go to that school...don't ask me why...for some reason I just felt it was best!
I had to teach my own son how to read because the school were convinced he was either deaf or dyslexic. He kept asking me why he was in the group with all the 'crosseyed children'. Oh dear!! We taught him with Janet and John books and he did brilliantly. The school even told me I was wrong when I told them he COULD READ! The special needs co-ordinator told me there was no way my son could cope with the book I waved in front of her. Then he sat and read it for her and she looked at him quite angrily and said 'Hey...you didn't tell me you could read!'!!!! What on earth???!!!!! They couldn't be bothered to try to teach him and were only bothered with the kids who had already learned to read or were quiet and boring. At 18, my son was a gymnastics coach, a lifeguard and he's now also a dancer. He goes to a boxing club and loves his busy life! He's achieved all this at such a young age and yet he's...um...deaf, dyslexic and has aspergers!
Edited by BearFacedLiar on Tuesday 23 February 12:23
bga said:
Tangent Police said:
Ofsted is a total and utter waste of time. An exercise in bullst which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink.
I disagree. As a parent it provides some way of benchmarking schools against a set of common criteria. Not all of us are able to successfully work out what makes a good school. Back in the early 80's my primary school in Modbury was held up as a great school, the reality was there were plenty of Janner schools that were better and started with kids that had less advantageous upbringing. t which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink. The problem with any benchmarking is that you have to have the right criteria and it can never measure everything. Setting a criteria makes it a target or outcome and it does seem that it has proliferated throughout education, public sector, business.
Sounds a bit like southway to me. The only school my old man ever worked in where kids threw chisels at him.
I think we're talking about the same place, although it has a different name now. The deputy head has no front teeth, which is a performance indicator. He was probably smacked by some "cont". It's the only place where I (as a door sized monster) felt genuinely fearful of the "students".
They'll probably turn it into an academy or some other "centre of excellence".
What I'd like to see is staff getting passed around a bit. Obviously, the mere mention of this in the staffroom causes vitriol. Good practise needs to be shared and the way you do that is by passing people around. If you'd spent a bit of time at the local boys school, it would probably give you an opportunity to actually teach if you were at the sort of place we're talking about. It would raise your standards. I've noted that a lot of supply staff (and I know there are a lot of muppets) tend to have high standards and high expectations purely due to this. I've been told that "I have to set work by law, but really, your objectives are to keep them in the room, they're not going to do any work, they won't take their coats off and will just play on their phones". Oddly enough, in that lesson, one lad decided it would be a laugh to give his mate head whilst his mate was filming it on his phone. Funnily enough, when I sent a nice indian girl to go and find a member of senior management, she f
ked off. (This was at an "outstanding" school). I don't think employers or universities have any faith in the system. It doesn't correlate ability to apply knowledge with a grade. Universities are starting (newer ones) to go down the "outcome based courses" and the old "teaching" is coming in. Spoonfeeding..... A lot of people I did TT with had been on taught courses and their basic grasp of their subject was often crap.
The education system I have experienced (bar DHS for Boys) is of great cause for concern. Both the taught matter (from science, but probably applies across the board) and staffing are a problem.
I've only met a couple of heads who are any good at their job as well. A lot of them seem to spend a lot of time whanking in their studies.
Edited by Tangent Police on Tuesday 23 February 12:25
As a parent I agree that Ofsted can be a waste of time, where I am, we had about 8 secondary schools, they decided to embark on the Building Schools for the Future crap, and knock them all down, create 5 new 'super' schools with shiny new buildings, sorry, they are not schools, they are colleges.
The one that my children go to was being housed in the old sixth form college while the old school was pulled down and the new building put up, during this time, there was a lot of unsettlement within the staff and the pupils, which in turn had an effect on morale, attendence and quality of work, it was actually the 2nd of the 5 schools to be put into 'special measures'
I think the tally at the moment is that all 5 are, or have been in special measures at some point, and this only started 4 years ago (the whole time that my daughter has been in secondary education), they are focusing too much on the league tables, these aren't showing what a school is really like, my daughter is in year 10, and already has sat a French GCSE (not bad seeing as she didn't pick that as an option) and has started with the exams for the sciences and her maths, just so that they have some respectable numbers on the table.
The school was threatened with closure and being turned into an academy last year, if the exam results came in below a certain bench mark, it's not just the exam grades that make a school, this one has a lot of troubled kids in it, kids whose parents don't care, but in my opinion, it's a damn good school, the time and effort that the teachers and other staff put into trying to get these kids on the straight and narrow, trying to help them get somewhere with their lives is remarkable, I have nothing but respect for the whole staff there, and I have had dealings with most of them as my son has been having some problems, I couldn't have asked for more help and support from them.
But this support, and the effort and care from the staff can't be measured in a table, all people see are the fact that last year only 35% of students got the required grade, and the school is still under special measures, which creates more 'non education' problems for the staff as they have to keep preparing for yet another visit and assessment.
I was in the guinea pig year for the GSCEs or 16+ as they were called at the time, I did a mixture of these, O' Levels and CSEs, and the difference in the style of teaching between then and now is quite evident, the kids aren't being taught a subject, we lost marks for not showing your workings in maths tests, we lost marks for not using grammer properly, and there was no way on this earth that we could turn in a typed piece of work, my kids hate me for this, I go over their work with a fine tooth comb and make them write it all out again, in proper English, with proper spelling, punctuation and grammer, not that it gets them any extra marks, but at least they are learning to do it.
The one that my children go to was being housed in the old sixth form college while the old school was pulled down and the new building put up, during this time, there was a lot of unsettlement within the staff and the pupils, which in turn had an effect on morale, attendence and quality of work, it was actually the 2nd of the 5 schools to be put into 'special measures'
I think the tally at the moment is that all 5 are, or have been in special measures at some point, and this only started 4 years ago (the whole time that my daughter has been in secondary education), they are focusing too much on the league tables, these aren't showing what a school is really like, my daughter is in year 10, and already has sat a French GCSE (not bad seeing as she didn't pick that as an option) and has started with the exams for the sciences and her maths, just so that they have some respectable numbers on the table.
The school was threatened with closure and being turned into an academy last year, if the exam results came in below a certain bench mark, it's not just the exam grades that make a school, this one has a lot of troubled kids in it, kids whose parents don't care, but in my opinion, it's a damn good school, the time and effort that the teachers and other staff put into trying to get these kids on the straight and narrow, trying to help them get somewhere with their lives is remarkable, I have nothing but respect for the whole staff there, and I have had dealings with most of them as my son has been having some problems, I couldn't have asked for more help and support from them.
But this support, and the effort and care from the staff can't be measured in a table, all people see are the fact that last year only 35% of students got the required grade, and the school is still under special measures, which creates more 'non education' problems for the staff as they have to keep preparing for yet another visit and assessment.
I was in the guinea pig year for the GSCEs or 16+ as they were called at the time, I did a mixture of these, O' Levels and CSEs, and the difference in the style of teaching between then and now is quite evident, the kids aren't being taught a subject, we lost marks for not showing your workings in maths tests, we lost marks for not using grammer properly, and there was no way on this earth that we could turn in a typed piece of work, my kids hate me for this, I go over their work with a fine tooth comb and make them write it all out again, in proper English, with proper spelling, punctuation and grammer, not that it gets them any extra marks, but at least they are learning to do it.
- disclaimer, I am actually working at the same time as typing this, so there are probably plenty of glaring mistakes, always happens when I type, not when I write!
Edited by speedchick on Tuesday 23 February 12:28
Tangent Police said:
bga said:
Tangent Police said:
Ofsted is a total and utter waste of time. An exercise in bullst which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink.
I disagree. As a parent it provides some way of benchmarking schools against a set of common criteria. Not all of us are able to successfully work out what makes a good school. Back in the early 80's my primary school in Modbury was held up as a great school, the reality was there were plenty of Janner schools that were better and started with kids that had less advantageous upbringing. t which represents nothing apart from a waste of time, money and ink. The problem with any benchmarking is that you have to have the right criteria and it can never measure everything. Setting a criteria makes it a target or outcome and it does seem that it has proliferated throughout education, public sector, business.
I think we're talking about the same place, although it has a different name now. The deputy head has no front teeth, which is a performance indicator. He was probably smacked by some "cont". It's the only place where I (as a door sized monster) felt genuinely fearful of the "students".
They'll probably turn it into an academy or some other "centre of excellence".
What I'd like to see is staff getting passed around a bit. Obviously, the mere mention of this in the staffroom causes vitriol. Good practise needs to be shared and the way you do that is by passing people around. If you'd spent a bit of time at the local boys school, it would probably give you an opportunity to actually teach if you were at the sort of place we're talking about. It would raise your standards. I've noted that a lot of supply staff (and I know there are a lot of muppets) tend to have high standards and high expectations purely due to this. I've been told that "I have to set work by law, but really, your objectives are to keep them in the room, they're not going to do any work, they won't take their coats off and will just play on their phones". Oddly enough, in that lesson, one lad decided it would be a laugh to give his mate head whilst his mate was filming it on his phone. Funnily enough, when I sent a nice indian girl to go and find a member of senior management, she f
ked off. (This was at an "outstanding" school). I don't think employers or universities have any faith in the system. It doesn't correlate ability to apply knowledge with a grade. Universities are starting (newer ones) to go down the "outcome based courses" and the old "teaching" is coming in. Spoonfeeding..... A lot of people I did TT with had been on taught courses and their basic grasp of their subject was often crap.
The education system I have experienced (bar DHS for Boys) is of great cause for concern. Both the taught matter (from science, but probably applies across the board) and staffing are a problem.
I've only met a couple of heads who are any good at their job as well. A lot of them seem to spend a lot of time whanking in their studies.
Edited by BearFacedLiar on Tuesday 23 February 12:32
Tangent Police said:
If you'd seen how preparation is tackled, you'd view a lot of the teaching assessments as inadequate. It's like bloody X-Factor
Haha. It sounds exactly like audit preparation in the private sector. Plenty of work I do is audit work on behalf of medium & large accountancy firms. In a similar way to Ofstead we have criteria which become targets. The hoops companies jump through to hit them is laughable. The problem is that we (as an industry) don't have anything better that is acceptable or affordable. The result is probably a bit less "personal" in that companies are claiming that their financial figures are accurate, these are used by investors and pension managers etc. The same basic human nature is the same.Tangent Police said:
The education system I have experienced (bar DHS for Boys) is of great cause for concern. Both the taught matter (from science, but probably applies across the board) and staffing are a problem.
DHS always had a good rep when I was around there, apart from their woeful rugby team. A few mates went there & did really well. IIRC Plymouth College was a bit frustrated at the quality of students they produced.a bit O/T but one of my dad's Southway pupils used to frequently watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre on video. Apparently as an adult he went postal & hacked a guy to death (I don't think it was in Devon). Can't be a nice place to teach.
The problem is that that prize pillock BLiar, stood up and declared education to be a major objective, so since then it has had to improve, if this has meant closing failing schools and reopening them as academies, messing arround with curriculums until they resemble releases from the ministry of truth MMGW is gospel and must be taught as such, science is left out.
Apparently, at 6 i couldn't read!
My parents were somewhat bemused to hear that as they watched me read the morning paper every morning over the breakfast table!!! With my cross parents in the room, i achieved a reading age of 12!!!
The next week, i was at private school...... And went on to be a productive member of society, despite my 'struggles'
Teachers have been crap for at least 25 years.
Greg
My parents were somewhat bemused to hear that as they watched me read the morning paper every morning over the breakfast table!!! With my cross parents in the room, i achieved a reading age of 12!!!
The next week, i was at private school...... And went on to be a productive member of society, despite my 'struggles'
Teachers have been crap for at least 25 years.
Greg
bga said:
Greg_D said:
Teachers have been crap for at least 25 years.
Greg
Considering the occupation on your profile, is that not a bit Ratneresque Greg
I fill in the gaps with the best of the rest, but i can only work with what is available, and tbh (speaking as i find) the 'average' is not very good. There are so many (fundamental)things wrong with the education system i struggle to even start with my list. The whole thing needs throwing away and starting again. It's not necessarily the people per se that are wrong, more the framework and limitations that they operate within.
When the common sense party (who for some inexplicable reason don't exist at the moment!) comes to power, Hopefully it will be on THE LIST
Greg
WHAT? I'm inclined to lay the blame for the decline, not just in the use of correct grammar but in the overall ability to construct more than the most basic sentence, on examination bodies. I've worked in Further and Higher Education for some thirty-nine years and the decline has been noticeable throughout that time.
I carry out peer review for a number of "learned" journals and am regularly shocked by the poverty of expression shown in the langage used and the way that jargon is employed in an attempt to compensate for this.
I would suggest that because the use of good, clear and well-constructed language has not be valued by those who set the standards - ie examination bodies - those who prepare people to take examinations have also ceased to value it and hence these skills have largely been lost.
I apologise now for any shortcomings in what I have written here; I am only human.
Edited to add: I realise, of course, that examination bodies reflect the "policy of the day" - the point I am making is that the decline is systemic.
I carry out peer review for a number of "learned" journals and am regularly shocked by the poverty of expression shown in the langage used and the way that jargon is employed in an attempt to compensate for this.
I would suggest that because the use of good, clear and well-constructed language has not be valued by those who set the standards - ie examination bodies - those who prepare people to take examinations have also ceased to value it and hence these skills have largely been lost.
I apologise now for any shortcomings in what I have written here; I am only human.
Edited to add: I realise, of course, that examination bodies reflect the "policy of the day" - the point I am making is that the decline is systemic.
Edited by Prof Beard on Tuesday 23 February 20:51
Prof Beard said:
I carry out peer review for a number of "learned" journals and am regularly shocked by the poverty of expression shown in the langage used and the way that jargon is employed in an attempt to compensate for this.
I sincerely agree with the above. Do you also think that this language "streamlining" is encouraged by academic staff? It's almost like there is an acceptable "range" of language used in reports/essays, the boundaries of which are narrower than one would think.....
Seemed to be the case in both Uni's I went to.
Prof Beard said:
I carry out peer review for a number of "learned" journals and am regularly shocked by the poverty of expression shown in the langage used and the way that jargon is employed in an attempt to compensate for this.
I would suggest that because the use of good, clear and well-constructed language has not be valued by those who set the standards - ie examination bodies - those who prepare people to take examinations have also ceased to value it and hence these skills have largely been lost.
I apologise now for any shortcomings in what I have written here; I am only human.
Agree. And at least you apologise. More than most will do these days. I would suggest that because the use of good, clear and well-constructed language has not be valued by those who set the standards - ie examination bodies - those who prepare people to take examinations have also ceased to value it and hence these skills have largely been lost.
I apologise now for any shortcomings in what I have written here; I am only human.
I'm still pointing out your minor error (see bold type) though!
My suggestion is if you want to brush up on your grammar, punctuation, spelling 'and so on' (much better to use than the lazy 'etc'), you should put a long post up here on PHs...
someone is bound sure to correct it for you!
E&OA
J B L said:
Real question is, what can be done? I have just become a father and I don't want my little girl to grow up thinking that all is fair and easy when in reality this sort of soft education do not prepare you for the outside world's reality.
As has already been suggested, private is the best option, my 6 year old is doing extremely well at his private primary school and my 2 year old daughter will be joining him.It's a financial burden but worth it in the long run we have to make sacrifices but I'd rather have a bit less swish holiday or drive a car for 5 years than them go to the local state schools.
The Channel 4 documentary 'That'll Teach'Em' I think it was called took a group of A* GCSE pupils and gave them papers from the 50s they barely scraped a C grade, exams not easier my bottom.
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