Moderate Muslims
Discussion
TTwiggy said:
IIIRestorerIII said:
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
I'd be keen to hear the other side of the story and Jon's other posts on Facebook make his political leanings quite clear.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
Furthermore, author completely misses his own joke about Muslim men "putting the fear of God" into his customers, before the Police turn up "On Mass" (Swiss Guardsmen, one assumes).
I don't believe a word of it.
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
What I'd like to say is unpublishable, even on p.h.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
Phil
hstewie said:digimeistter said:
TTwiggy said:
IIIRestorerIII said:
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
I'd be keen to hear the other side of the story and Jon's other posts on Facebook make his political leanings quite clear.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
Well, we have 4 gentlemen who on visual appearance you would take a punt a being of muslim persuasion.
And the story says... a shop full of OAP's were scared.
And a few blues and two's turned up in force...
My guess is one of the following.
1/ One (or more) of the four gentlemen find this picture doing the rounds and everyone around them going 'Dude... you are that nutty bloke that went bonkers in a craft shop!!" - and they come forward and debunk it.
2/ One (or more) of the four gentlemen find this picture doing the rounds and everyone around them going 'Dude... you are that nutty bloke that went bonkers in a craft shop!!" - and they come forward and try to debunk it but all the witnesses in the shop make it clear that happened was real.
3/ Plenty of witnesses in the shop to make their own feelings known... and the evidence builds up for the case FOR or AGAINSt.
4/ Plod tells us
5/ CCTV makes it clear.
Whatever happened or not happened. We live in an age where it will not be long before the truth will out.
Right now... it is click bait.
And the story says... a shop full of OAP's were scared.
And a few blues and two's turned up in force...
My guess is one of the following.
1/ One (or more) of the four gentlemen find this picture doing the rounds and everyone around them going 'Dude... you are that nutty bloke that went bonkers in a craft shop!!" - and they come forward and debunk it.
2/ One (or more) of the four gentlemen find this picture doing the rounds and everyone around them going 'Dude... you are that nutty bloke that went bonkers in a craft shop!!" - and they come forward and try to debunk it but all the witnesses in the shop make it clear that happened was real.
3/ Plenty of witnesses in the shop to make their own feelings known... and the evidence builds up for the case FOR or AGAINSt.
4/ Plod tells us
5/ CCTV makes it clear.
Whatever happened or not happened. We live in an age where it will not be long before the truth will out.
Right now... it is click bait.
Ridley said:
Who were you before you were banned?
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
If it did happen their a bunch of idiots. They obviously don't know their own rules for praying.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
"If the owner gives a verbal consent for offering prayers in his property, but it is known that he is not happy about it at heart, then offering prayers in his property is void. Conversely, if he does not give verbal permission but it is known with certainty that he is happy about it, then offering prayers in his property will be in order." Ismail ibn Musa Menk
Edited by triggerh4ppy on Wednesday 10th February 09:19
WinstonWolf said:
Ridley said:
Who were you before you were banned?AJS- said:
As far as I can tell from a quick google there are about 1,500 mosques in Britain, plus prayer rooms and community centres. I'm sure there are better uses for an extra 2,000 police officers than having them standing around outside these things looking for signs of extremism, whatever they may be.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
Great post.CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
AJS- said:
As far as I can tell from a quick google there are about 1,500 mosques in Britain, plus prayer rooms and community centres. I'm sure there are better uses for an extra 2,000 police officers than having them standing around outside these things looking for signs of extremism, whatever they may be.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
Why do you bother?CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
All you did there was say "lets assume muslims who follow islam are bad and aggressive, let's do something about it". And then you have streached that out to a full novel that in your own head you believe is intellectual analysis based on sound logic.
Back to my question: WHy do you bother? You've spent years on PH and untold man-hours preaching about this muslim problem of ours. Utter relentless pursuit of what you perceive to be the correct answer which is basically to pursuade everyone that you are right and all religious muslims are basically bad.
I've asked you before why you do it, and you replied words to the effect that you care deeply about what you perceive to be the current biggest threat to our security etc and you would like to evolve the discussion etc etc. All a fair comment.
At what point are you going to realise that you are dedicating everything to this and achieving exactly nothing?
You construct these massive philosophies on here and everyone that already thinks muslims are bad say "yeah, spot on. Good post" and everyone that doesn't think muslims are bad say "Nonsense, you are basing all your opinions on a false premise".
So what is the point of your relentlessness on here? You aren't achieving anything, you aren't learning anything, you aren't solving anything and you aren't changing anyone's opinion.
If you feel as strongly as you actually do, why not go out into the actual real world and try and do your preaching there to see if you can actually achieve something beyond back slapping with people who already feel the same?
blindswelledrat said:
AJS- said:
As far as I can tell from a quick google there are about 1,500 mosques in Britain, plus prayer rooms and community centres. I'm sure there are better uses for an extra 2,000 police officers than having them standing around outside these things looking for signs of extremism, whatever they may be.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
Why do you bother?CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
All you did there was say "lets assume muslims who follow islam are bad and aggressive, let's do something about it". And then you have streached that out to a full novel that in your own head you believe is intellectual analysis based on sound logic.
Back to my question: WHy do you bother? You've spent years on PH and untold man-hours preaching about this muslim problem of ours. Utter relentless pursuit of what you perceive to be the correct answer which is basically to pursuade everyone that you are right and all religious muslims are basically bad.
I've asked you before why you do it, and you replied words to the effect that you care deeply about what you perceive to be the current biggest threat to our security etc and you would like to evolve the discussion etc etc. All a fair comment.
At what point are you going to realise that you are dedicating everything to this and achieving exactly nothing?
You construct these massive philosophies on here and everyone that already thinks muslims are bad say "yeah, spot on. Good post" and everyone that doesn't think muslims are bad say "Nonsense, you are basing all your opinions on a false premise".
So what is the point of your relentlessness on here? You aren't achieving anything, you aren't learning anything, you aren't solving anything and you aren't changing anyone's opinion.
If you feel as strongly as you actually do, why not go out into the actual real world and try and do your preaching there to see if you can actually achieve something beyond back slapping with people who already feel the same?
Why do you bother?
Your posts rarely add anything to the discussion.
You have a degree of wit, which I must admit I enjoy. However, your wit seems to be countered by your lack of intellect.
We do have a problem with Islamist terrorism. We need to address it.
When the IRA were a problem, nobody felt that we couldn't discuss it. Why do you constantly try to shut down any discussion about the Islam issue?
I've posted on here a few times about the moderate version of Islam followed by my wife, (and indeed the majority of Indonesians, SE Asians), over the weekend she was in a position to discuss this and she is a follower of the Nahdltul Ulma, which was set up specifically to counter the jihadic/Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia.
I still believe we have to stop looking at Islam being a unified problem, and adopt a position of divide and conquer, and that the real issue is Saudi and Pakistani practice/beliefs.
I still believe we have to stop looking at Islam being a unified problem, and adopt a position of divide and conquer, and that the real issue is Saudi and Pakistani practice/beliefs.
Part of the problem is a small but vocal section of PH N,P & E enthusiast members who are not only extreme right wingers, but also devout atheists. It's a fetid combination that pretty much rules out any sensible conversation & almost always ends with if they don't like our way of life then they can go home. What exactly is our way of life in multi-cultural Britain? Also, where exactly is home if you were born & raised here?
I'm white, middle class & also agnostic & I can't relate to the right wing PH nutters any more than I do a fundamentalist Muslim.
99.9% of British Muslims don't need to change a single thing about the way they live their lives. However, plenty of very vocal PH'ers really need to be dragged kicking & screaming into this century.
I'm white, middle class & also agnostic & I can't relate to the right wing PH nutters any more than I do a fundamentalist Muslim.
99.9% of British Muslims don't need to change a single thing about the way they live their lives. However, plenty of very vocal PH'ers really need to be dragged kicking & screaming into this century.
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