80 years ago today - Britain Declares War on Germany
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
As the various navies of the world found out to their cost, it was air power which was the game changer in WW2. Multi million pound surface units were a liability when it was discovered they could be destroyed by aircraft costing just a few thousand pounds. This was why Dudley Pound kept the home fleet out of the way, up in Scapa Flow. This was why Hitler insisted on having air power established over the channel, BEFORE he launched any kind of invasion, so whether or not the Germans could have, or would have got across the channel in 39-40 is just a moot point. The FACT of the matter is that the Luftwaffe did not establish air superiority, at the time it was required.
In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
Pan Pan Pan said:
DoubleD said:
I disagree, I think that the Americans would have joined the fight and the Russians wouldn't have had a choice but to fight the Nazis.
The war would have ended in a different way though.
What possible reasons would the US have for joining in another `European' war, had the UK fallen in 39-40? They were certainly deeply opposed to communism, so why would they help a communist regime?The war would have ended in a different way though.
Even if they had wanted to, how could they possibly have launched D Day from across the far side of the Atlantic? We only just about got across English channel on D day.
How would the Russians have fared without the hundreds of thousands of tons of war materiel supplied via the UK from the US, that Stalin demanded from the Allies, just for him to stay in the war?
The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
s2art said:
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.
You cant win a war from the air!DoubleD said:
The Russians would have withdrawn deeper into their own country, but would have eventually started the fight back when the Nazi supply lines were too long. The Americans would have concentrated their efforts on the Japanese. But there is no way they would have wanted the Russians to become the dominant world power.
The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
Thats not clear. It depends on if the Yanks continue to supply the UK. If they do, the UK atom bomb project comes into fruition in approx 46. We know from hindsight that they were on the right lines to build a simple little boy type bomb. On a shoestring compared to the Manhatten project, but it would have worked. So what happens if Berlin is nuked?The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
s2art said:
DoubleD said:
The Russians would have withdrawn deeper into their own country, but would have eventually started the fight back when the Nazi supply lines were too long. The Americans would have concentrated their efforts on the Japanese. But there is no way they would have wanted the Russians to become the dominant world power.
The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
Thats not clear. It depends on if the Yanks continue to supply the UK. If they do, the UK atom bomb project comes into fruition in approx 46. We know from hindsight that they were on the right lines to build a simple little boy type bomb. On a shoestring compared to the Manhatten project, but it would have worked. So what happens if Berlin is nuked?The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
Eric Mc said:
As mentioned above by me, Gort ordered his troops to fall back towards Dunkirk on this day in 1940.
What gets mentioned far less is the fate of the BEF who were operating further south and how their evacuation was arranged.
Sorry, missed it. this is one of the periods I need to read up more on. Grandfather was captured and escaped around this time. They decided that they didn't want the fate (or prison) they expected after they had heard roumors and took on armed guards to escape.What gets mentioned far less is the fate of the BEF who were operating further south and how their evacuation was arranged.
DoubleD said:
s2art said:
DoubleD said:
The Russians would have withdrawn deeper into their own country, but would have eventually started the fight back when the Nazi supply lines were too long. The Americans would have concentrated their efforts on the Japanese. But there is no way they would have wanted the Russians to become the dominant world power.
The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
Thats not clear. It depends on if the Yanks continue to supply the UK. If they do, the UK atom bomb project comes into fruition in approx 46. We know from hindsight that they were on the right lines to build a simple little boy type bomb. On a shoestring compared to the Manhatten project, but it would have worked. So what happens if Berlin is nuked?The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
s2art said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
As the various navies of the world found out to their cost, it was air power which was the game changer in WW2. Multi million pound surface units were a liability when it was discovered they could be destroyed by aircraft costing just a few thousand pounds. This was why Dudley Pound kept the home fleet out of the way, up in Scapa Flow. This was why Hitler insisted on having air power established over the channel, BEFORE he launched any kind of invasion, so whether or not the Germans could have, or would have got across the channel in 39-40 is just a moot point. The FACT of the matter is that the Luftwaffe did not establish air superiority, at the time it was required.
In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
As I have posted before there are numerous reasons why the Nazis could not have got across the channel in 1939 -40 (but even this does not mean that they might not have eventually overcome this obstacle) but the fact of the matter is that Hitler would not even launch an invasion until he had established air superiority over the channel. The fact of the matter is that he did NOT establish air superiority over the channel.
Hitler already knew the German navy was weak compared to the British navy.
But even with this situation, Dudley Pound kept the home fleet up in Scapa Flow, because he did not want to even` risk' losing major elements of the British navy to a few Nazi bombers.
Bombers that with no UK fighters to worry about, could have bombed any UK naval surface units to oblivion at their leisure. taking all the time, bombs, and aircraft, they needed to do so.
Just like the Japanese did at Singapore, and at a time, when German aircraft were in advance of Japanese aircraft.
Pan Pan Pan said:
s2art said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
As the various navies of the world found out to their cost, it was air power which was the game changer in WW2. Multi million pound surface units were a liability when it was discovered they could be destroyed by aircraft costing just a few thousand pounds. This was why Dudley Pound kept the home fleet out of the way, up in Scapa Flow. This was why Hitler insisted on having air power established over the channel, BEFORE he launched any kind of invasion, so whether or not the Germans could have, or would have got across the channel in 39-40 is just a moot point. The FACT of the matter is that the Luftwaffe did not establish air superiority, at the time it was required.
In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.In hindsight we know that it was the BoB which stopped Hitler even starting to launch an invasion of the UK.
It was aircraft that helped put paid to the Bismarck and Tirpitz. It was aircraft which sunk British capital ships off Singapore, It was aircraft that inflicted massive damage , and decided the outcome of the war in the Pacific. It was aircraft that had a significant effect in the Falklands War
And as we can now see it is aircraft (not forgetting the vehicle which delivers them to where they need to be) which is a (if not the) key element in military power today.
Battleships, and other very large warships in navies. have virtually died out for a good reason. They are massively expensive, but relatively easily destroyed.
As I have posted before there are numerous reasons why the Nazis could not have got across the channel in 1939 -40 (but even this does not mean that they might not have eventually overcome this obstacle) but the fact of the matter is that Hitler would not even launch an invasion until he had established air superiority over the channel. The fact of the matter is that he did NOT establish air superiority over the channel.
Hitler already knew the German navy was weak compared to the British navy.
But even with this situation, Dudley Pound kept the home fleet up in Scapa Flow, because he did not want to even` risk' losing major elements of the British navy to a few Nazi bombers.
Bombers that with no UK fighters to worry about, could have bombed any UK naval surface units to oblivion at their leisure. taking all the time, bombs, and aircraft, they needed to do so.
Just like the Japanese did at Singapore, and at a time, when German aircraft were in advance of Japanese aircraft.
DoubleD said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
DoubleD said:
I disagree, I think that the Americans would have joined the fight and the Russians wouldn't have had a choice but to fight the Nazis.
The war would have ended in a different way though.
What possible reasons would the US have for joining in another `European' war, had the UK fallen in 39-40? They were certainly deeply opposed to communism, so why would they help a communist regime?The war would have ended in a different way though.
Even if they had wanted to, how could they possibly have launched D Day from across the far side of the Atlantic? We only just about got across English channel on D day.
How would the Russians have fared without the hundreds of thousands of tons of war materiel supplied via the UK from the US, that Stalin demanded from the Allies, just for him to stay in the war?
The Nazis would have been beaten without the UK, but couldnt have been beaten without the Russians or the Americans.
.But why would the US help the Russians against the Germans, as both Nazism and communism were?
\Do you not ever wonder why it took the `combined' efforts of the UK, the US and Russia to beat Nazi Germany. Do you seriously believe the Russians could have defeated the Nazis on their own
If so why did Stalin demand colossal supplies of war materiel from the Allies? Why did he not want to launch his attack in the East, until the Allies launched theirs in the West? That does not sound like someone who believed he could defeat the Nazis on his own, someone who had more idea of what might actually be achieved than any of us..
Pan Pan Pan said:
I have already said this, but BOTH the US and Russia needed the UK to still be in the war for them to prevails against the Nazis.
.But why would the US help the Russians against the Germans, as both Nazism and communism were?
\Do you not ever wonder why it took the `combined' efforts of the UK, the US and Russia to beat Nazi Germany. Do you seriously believe the Russians could have defeated the Nazis on their own
If so why did Stalin demand colossal supplies of war materiel from the Allies? Why did he not want to launch his attack in the East, until the Allies launched theirs in the West? That does not sound like someone who believed he could defeat the Nazis on his own, someone who had more idea of what might actually be achieved than any of us..
I know what you have already said, so no need to shout. I just don't agree..But why would the US help the Russians against the Germans, as both Nazism and communism were?
\Do you not ever wonder why it took the `combined' efforts of the UK, the US and Russia to beat Nazi Germany. Do you seriously believe the Russians could have defeated the Nazis on their own
If so why did Stalin demand colossal supplies of war materiel from the Allies? Why did he not want to launch his attack in the East, until the Allies launched theirs in the West? That does not sound like someone who believed he could defeat the Nazis on his own, someone who had more idea of what might actually be achieved than any of us..
The US did help the Russians, so im not sure what point it is that you are trying to make.
DoubleD said:
s2art said:
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.
You cant win a war from the air!Pan Pan Pan said:
DoubleD said:
s2art said:
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.
You cant win a war from the air!Pan Pan Pan said:
DoubleD said:
s2art said:
And yet, after wargaming several times by experts including those who were there at the time, the Germans could not have successfully invaded the UK due to lack of seapower. They even wargamed it with the RAF and RN out of the way, didnt matter its always a disaster for the invasion force.
You cant win a war from the air!Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff