Why the UKIP will never work....
Discussion
CamMoreRon said:
Well.. as I had said they aren't a single issue party. The name Green Party is misleading and may be the single biggest thing holding them back from success.
Their core belief is that humans need to find a way to live as cleanly and sustainably as possible - which should really be a no-brainer; that doesn't mean their only policies are about the environment. There is a LOT of policy info on their website, and quite a lot of detail.
Considering how their policies and beliefs have been implemented in the Brighton and Hove area and the attention that has brought over the last few years in the MSM I don't think their name is what is holding them back.Their core belief is that humans need to find a way to live as cleanly and sustainably as possible - which should really be a no-brainer; that doesn't mean their only policies are about the environment. There is a LOT of policy info on their website, and quite a lot of detail.
CamMoreRon said:
otolith said:
There are lots of people who have environmental sympathies who are alienated by the watermelon tendencies of the Green Party - in the same way that left wing eurosceptics are alienated by UKIP's right of centre rhetoric. Working up a full manifesto is a trap laid by the mainstream parties - why should a party which is essentially single issue and will never gain an outright majority need to take a position on divisive issues which are essentially irrelevant to the party's raison d'être?
Well.. as I had said they aren't a single issue party. The name Green Party is misleading and may be the single biggest thing holding them back from success.Their core belief is that humans need to find a way to live as cleanly and sustainably as possible - which should really be a no-brainer; that doesn't mean their only policies are about the environment. There is a LOT of policy info on their website, and quite a lot of detail.
ks. Nothing to do with the environment, everything to do with being a bunch of trots. I share some of their beliefs on the environment, but I'm not going to vote for far left economic policies. Sorry.RYH64E said:
If I buy from a country in the EU the goods just turn up, whereas if I buy from a country outside the EU the goods have to clear customs, I have to pay VAT and duty, I have to pay a freight forwarder a load of fees for calculating the various costs, and I have to run a deferment account so that HMRC can make the neccessary deductions. Intra EU trade is much simpler and cheaper than importing from outside the EU, hence the oft made complaint that the EU is protectionist - it is, but it protects those inside the club.
Incidently, luckily I'm not in the automotive business because import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10% and on trucks they're 22%, that's a huge cost for our automotive sector to absorb or a huge premium for their EU customers to have to pay for the privilege of buying UK made cars.
This is UKIP's greatest weapon as so much of that is hard to understand for most people. Duty deferment account doesn't make a snappy sound bite compared to "We will save eleventy billion!"Incidently, luckily I'm not in the automotive business because import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10% and on trucks they're 22%, that's a huge cost for our automotive sector to absorb or a huge premium for their EU customers to have to pay for the privilege of buying UK made cars.
People who do a job don't tend to understand why we need the EU. People who do business, do.
Axionknight said:
Considering how their policies and beliefs have been implemented in the Brighton and Hove area and the attention that has brought over the last few years in the MSM I don't think their name is what is holding them back.
Oh, what? A couple of bins got left out? Please..Guam said:
In any event for me its a basic democratic issue, we were deprived of the opportunity to vote on the Lisbon treaty (the only country in the EU at the time who were deprived of that vote) this is something that needs correcting imho!
Stay or leave should be the decision of the whole of the electorate, not just the purview of the privileged few imho
AIUI a Tory vote is the only way to guarantee this. UKIP won't give the electorate a choice, they'll just leave.Stay or leave should be the decision of the whole of the electorate, not just the purview of the privileged few imho
TKF said:
Guam said:
In any event for me its a basic democratic issue, we were deprived of the opportunity to vote on the Lisbon treaty (the only country in the EU at the time who were deprived of that vote) this is something that needs correcting imho!
Stay or leave should be the decision of the whole of the electorate, not just the purview of the privileged few imho
AIUI a Tory vote is the only way to guarantee this. UKIP won't give the electorate a choice, they'll just leave.Stay or leave should be the decision of the whole of the electorate, not just the purview of the privileged few imho
TKF said:
UKIP's policies are right wing.
Nonsense, they are simply a list of tasks that would help the country and its people.Put them side by side with any other and lets discuss.
There is no left or right, only right and wrong, and getting a good balance will never appeal to everyone.
Guam said:
In any event for me its a basic democratic issue, we were deprived of the opportunity to vote on the Lisbon treaty (the only country in the EU at the time who were deprived of that vote) this is something that needs correcting imho!
While we where deprived of a vote so where 24 other EU nations, Only Ireland had a vote. 4 others had a vote on the EU constitution.vonuber said:
If people were truly that bothered by democracy we would have proportional representation as the voting system, rather than the antiquated and unfair one we do have.
All election systems are unfair in one way or another, except sortition. If we must have "representational" democracy I would be happy enough with sortition, many would not. What system of PR would you select? Bearing it in mind that party list systems place IMHO far too much power in the hands of party grandees and similar parasites.Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
Membership of the WTO should allow us to trade freely with other members. how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
However, its not as simple as that so as examples:
1. WTO does not cover financial services or sales of intellectual property,
2. While trade can be free produce must follow local design/safety regulations. One way a country can get round WTO rules is to have specific design rules to deny access to the market. These would not be legal under WTO rules if they where only designed to limit access but that's hard to prove.
3. Disputes take years to resolve.
Any one who does not believe we need an agreement with the EU if we leave the EU is mad.
Further what we will not get or want is free trade agreements. To understand that look at the rules of WTO, free trade agreements and most favoured nation status. We have to agree free trade areas.
Guam said:
TKF said:
AIUI a Tory vote is the only way to guarantee this. UKIP won't give the electorate a choice, they'll just leave.
Where do they say that they will arbitrarily leave without holding a referendum first, clearly I must have missed that can you link me to it?WinstonWolf said:
The clue is in the name, UK Independence Party.
Guam said:
I well understand the mechanics and the pitfalls, however a free trade area has never required a political superstate, that latter point for me being too high a price to pay.
In the case of Switzerland, in order to maintain access to the free trade area they've had to sign up to pretty much all of the EU legislation, including the free movement of labour (also known as the immigration problem). Whilst you might want the free trade area with no strings attached it's unlikely to be on offer, so what then?King said:
said: I note that no UKIP supporters have yet commented on the quote below.
So f'ing WHAT! UKIP wants the UK to leave the EU, what does it matter who they join with to retain their voice within it.
You made this slanderous and inciteful statement: 'No it isn't, scratch below the surface and they are a racist/right-wing hate mob.'
To reach that insane conclusion, you need help for your mental state.
NOT one word of what you said is true
Their policies are NOT racist, they are for the indigenous population of the UK.
Their policies are NOT right wing, they are for the average person living in the UK.
Their policies have no hate.
They are NOT a mob.
I will comment on behalf of myself but not UKIP nor their supporters.King said:
said:NicD said:
JBF50 said:
NicD said:
YOU need therapy!
Ukip does deal with far-right, racist Holocaust-denier to save EU funding http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/20/uk...You made this slanderous and inciteful statement: 'No it isn't, scratch below the surface and they are a racist/right-wing hate mob.'
To reach that insane conclusion, you need help for your mental state.
NOT one word of what you said is true
Their policies are NOT racist, they are for the indigenous population of the UK.
Their policies are NOT right wing, they are for the average person living in the UK.
Their policies have no hate.
They are NOT a mob.
Firstly, if this is your evidence of your original accusation of UKIP supporters agreeing with XJFlyers racist rants whilst pretending they aren't racist themselves, then there are three words which sum up my assessment of your case. Pathetic, not proven.
On the phrase I suspect you are focused on, the one containing the word indigenous, then I suspect the writer didn't understand the meaning of the word indigenous. To suggest that the whole of UKIP policy is directed for the benefit of the Cornish is preposterous.
As preposterous as is the notion of reporting someone to the mods for using a wrong word.
Of course maybe he did mean that word and then it's up to him to explain it as it doesn't make sense to me. There is no such thing as an indigenous Briton.
Maybe others have not answered as they clearly consider you to be an argumentative little troll. That's their opinion, but I have seen enough to expect that this will be the last of my posts answering any of your input.
Bye.
TKF said:
Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
It's not the tarrif I'm concerned about and I fully expect an agreement similar to Switzerland should we ever leave.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
However there is much more red tape vs EU trade. Selling to Belgium is no harder than selling to Leeds whereas to Switzerland there are more hoops to jump through for both sides. Cost/hassle increases, orders decrease.
That's just for exports. If you look at the farmers here they are subsidised by payments from CAP but also via import tariffs which hold up food prices by keeping out cheaper produce. If we went it alone we'd either have to put up our own tariffs and p
s off USA or see British farmers destroyed by imports from heavily subsidised US produce. Norway and Switzerland chose to put up tarrifs and they have the highest food costs in Europe.Those are just 2 examples. There are plenty more but it'll never get heard over the rhetoric of EU=bad.
having exported to EU and non EU countries, it's not great shakes either way, I would argue having to comply with EU sales lists for the VAT office is more of a PITA than to non-EU.
getting on to CAP, it's a mess and always has been, way I see it, yes will would have to subsidise our agriculture to make it a level playing field, but as CAP already does this, just really in-efficiently (the subsidies are tied to stupid s
t from the ever expanding green agenda), I would argue that it would be much cheaper for us to do it domestically, with a longer term plan of phasing it out completely (this may well involve quota's/tariffs on imports though to stop other countries dumping).(this is pretty much what every other country out there does, look at the US for example.)
RYH64E said:
If I buy from a country in the EU the goods just turn up, whereas if I buy from a country outside the EU the goods have to clear customs, I have to pay VAT and duty, I have to pay a freight forwarder a load of fees for calculating the various costs, and I have to run a deferment account so that HMRC can make the necessary deductions. Intra EU trade is much simpler and cheaper than importing from outside the EU, hence the oft made complaint that the EU is protectionist - it is, but it protects those inside the club.
Incidentally, luckily I'm not in the automotive business because import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10% and on trucks they're 22%, that's a huge cost for our automotive sector to absorb or a huge premium for their EU customers to have to pay for the privilege of buying UK made cars.
we were talking exports, but OK, imports, well, if Germany want to keep selling us cars, then a deal will need to be done, and let's face it, nobody is going to jeopardize the trade we have now over some EU political rhetoric, we are VAG/Merc/BMW's biggest customers outside of the US, you really think they will risk our business?Incidentally, luckily I'm not in the automotive business because import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10% and on trucks they're 22%, that's a huge cost for our automotive sector to absorb or a huge premium for their EU customers to have to pay for the privilege of buying UK made cars.
we import way more from the EU than export to it, simple economics will dictate.
Countdown said:
I think the issues of "competitive advantage" and "absolute advantage" come into play. If there is absolutely no difference in trading costs between being in the EU and being outside then things will probably continue as normal. However if there is a 5% increase in cost (due to trade barriers for example) then it may make it more attractive for Pierre to buy widgets from Hans or Piotr (within EU) rather than from Barry (who is now outside). Of course we could impose similar trade barriers to EU imports but that would only work if we could import the same goods from elsewhere. So the worst case scenario is Pierre buys his goods from elsewhere in the EU rather than the UK but we still have to buy cheese from Pierre because there isn't a comparable alternative for Brie and Camembert.
Obviously if we have unique goods/services that can't be substituted then we'll be fine.
As above, nobody is going to start a trade war, in the EU's current state, it would push all of them into serious recession, and may well trigger the collapse of the euro, they might huff and puff a bit, but a deal will be done.Obviously if we have unique goods/services that can't be substituted then we'll be fine.
Mrr T said:
Membership of the WTO should allow us to trade freely with other members.
However, its not as simple as that so as examples:
1. WTO does not cover financial services or sales of intellectual property,
2. While trade can be free produce must follow local design/safety regulations. One way a country can get round WTO rules is to have specific design rules to deny access to the market. These would not be legal under WTO rules if they where only designed to limit access but that's hard to prove.
3. Disputes take years to resolve.
Any one who does not believe we need an agreement with the EU if we leave the EU is mad.
Further what we will not get or want is free trade agreements. To understand that look at the rules of WTO, free trade agreements and most favoured nation status. We have to agree free trade areas.
you're right, but it's as much in their interests as ours, and I would argue, more so for them.However, its not as simple as that so as examples:
1. WTO does not cover financial services or sales of intellectual property,
2. While trade can be free produce must follow local design/safety regulations. One way a country can get round WTO rules is to have specific design rules to deny access to the market. These would not be legal under WTO rules if they where only designed to limit access but that's hard to prove.
3. Disputes take years to resolve.
Any one who does not believe we need an agreement with the EU if we leave the EU is mad.
Further what we will not get or want is free trade agreements. To understand that look at the rules of WTO, free trade agreements and most favoured nation status. We have to agree free trade areas.
we already trade with every other country on the planet perfectly well, why should the EU be any different?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff