Who will be the new Labour leader?

[turbobloke]

Asterix said:

Blair talking about principle.

I don't know How he does it.

Just salesman patter in selling himself - he can't change his spots.

[Cheese Mechanic]

NoNeed said:

Daniel Hannan thinks it could be bad for the conservatives http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015...
I do too.

Interesting perspectives from one of the few politicians I view above a level of disdain.

Fact is though , Corbyn would frighten witless the average voter , Milliclown did, and Corbyn comes across as several notches up the lunatic scale from him. Many Labour voters would decamp to other parties with a crank like Corbyn behind the steering wheel. Having concern for a responsible govt of the day, is a far lesser evil than having a fiscally incompetent bunch of lefty idealists having charge of more than their own toothbrushes.

Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Wednesday 22 July 08:54

[hornetrider]

I still haven't heard Corbyn speak. Ever. Quite looking forward to it.

[AJS-]

Disagree with Hannan.

We need an opposition, it doesn't need to be Labour which is a horrible mess of a party, spawned in an age which has passed for a struggle which did no-one any good and did the country a great deal of harm.

There might not be a very obvious successor yet. It could be some sort of social-democratic pact with the rump of the Lib Dems, but it must involve dropping it's ideological love of the mighty state, it's belief in the moral rightness of high taxes as an end unto itself and it's enduring belief in class war long after class has ceased to be a meaningful dividing line in British society. These things proved a lot harder to remove from Labour's DNA than Clause IV was from its constitution.

In my ideal world, the opposition to the Tories would be something like UKIP, as a patriotic, libertarian-conservative party. But it's not my ideal world.

[Asterix]

After Mr. Wishy-Washy Cameron I'd like to see a more 'Conservative' leader/PM.

All this Middle Ground bks is rubbish.

If Labour goes hard left, it will allow a more 'Right' party to develop.

[Saddle bum]

Asterix said:

After Mr. Wishy-Washy Cameron I'd like to see a more 'Conservative' leader/PM.

All this Middle Ground bks is rubbish.

If Labour goes hard left, it will allow a more 'Right' party to develop.

That is not automatically so. If labour lurches left, the centre ground still needs to be captured by the Conservatives. An ultra-right party will not fill the vacuum, it has to have policies that appeal.

[Asterix]

Saddle bum said:

Asterix said:

After Mr. Wishy-Washy Cameron I'd like to see a more 'Conservative' leader/PM.

All this Middle Ground bks is rubbish.

If Labour goes hard left, it will allow a more 'Right' party to develop.

That is not automatically so. If labour lurches left, the centre ground still needs to be captured by the Conservatives. An ultra-right party will not fill the vacuum, it has to have policies that appeal.

Sure. It will still hold the Centre but it will also be able to pursue more 'Right' social & economic policies which, IMHO, will benefit those who fancy getting off their arse and doing something with their lives.

As long as they keep social benefits for the truly needy.

[Timmy40]

Cheese Mechanic said:

NoNeed said:

Daniel Hannan thinks it could be bad for the conservatives http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015...
I do too.

Interesting perspectives from one of the few politicians I view above a level of disdain.

Fact is though , Corbyn would frighten witless the average voter , Milliclown did, and Corbyn comes across as several notches up the lunatic scale from him. Many Labour voters would decamp to other parties with a crank like Corbyn behind the steering wheel. Having concern for a responsible govt of the day, is a far lesser evil than having a fiscally incompetent bunch of lefty idealists having charge of more than their own toothbrushes.

Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Wednesday 22 July 08:54

Corbyn would be an electoral suicide note from the Labour party. Bliar is right about one thing, Labour can only ever win by occupying the centre ground, lurching ever leftwards just scares more and more voters away. For some strange reason Labour seem to think that losing an election having lurched to the left, the reason voters didn't elect them is that they weren't left wing enough. Which is bonkers.

[Saddle bum]

Asterix said:

Saddle bum said:

Asterix said:

After Mr. Wishy-Washy Cameron I'd like to see a more 'Conservative' leader/PM.

All this Middle Ground bks is rubbish.

If Labour goes hard left, it will allow a more 'Right' party to develop.

That is not automatically so. If labour lurches left, the centre ground still needs to be captured by the Conservatives. An ultra-right party will not fill the vacuum, it has to have policies that appeal.

Sure. It will still hold the Centre but it will also be able to pursue more 'Right' social & economic policies which, IMHO, will benefit those who fancy getting off their arse and doing something with their lives.

As long as they keep social benefits for the truly needy.

I agree, however; "those who fancy getting off their arse" are, to all intents and purposes, still a minority. The Benefits Junkies will, of necessity, have to be forced into work by ever reducing levels of benefits.

"There are those that could, but wouldn't. There those that would but couldn't."

[gruffalo]

The SNP are more left wing than Labour and they won a land slide victory, I think Labour are chasing that dream and it may work. After the televised debates I heard may of the hard of thinking say that the SNP woman would be who they would vote for if they could. They believed the promises that she made knowing she would never have to deliver against them.

They believe in the magic money tree and they may well vote for a more extreme leftist party.

[turbobloke]

gruffalo said:

The SNP are more left wing than Labour and they won a land slide victory, I think Labour are chasing that dream and it may work. After the televised debates I heard may of the hard of thinking say that the SNP woman would be who they would vote for if they could. They believed the promises that she made knowing she would never have to deliver against them.

They believe in the magic money tree and they may well vote for a more extreme leftist party.

ISWYM but it's not obvious that this particular fleshware vulnerability applies as widely south of the border. Outside some London communist borough republics, current Labour stronghold areas in England are located around once-active coalfields and those former mining communities don't offer enough votes to do any real damage.



Labour needs to develop new plausible lies about centrism in order to stand a chance in 2020 and beyond. Then again, after Bliar it's a case of once bitten twice shy. Labour really are in a pickle.

[Timmy40]

gruffalo said:

The SNP are more left wing than Labour and they won a land slide victory, I think Labour are chasing that dream and it may work. After the televised debates I heard may of the hard of thinking say that the SNP woman would be who they would vote for if they could. They believed the promises that she made knowing she would never have to deliver against them.

They believe in the magic money tree and they may well vote for a more extreme leftist party.

It's not quite that simple. The SNP have rightly been accused of being a Chameleon party, a lot of what they say is contradictory because they seek to appeal to right, left and centre, people in Scotland myopically accepted this as it was all under the banner of independence, they looked past the confused policy mix. South of the border that is what New Labour did under Blair, forget principles just tell most of the people what they want to hear.

Labours current trajectory is to appeal 100% to a very small sector of the population who would vote Labour anyway ( even if the Labour PM candidate was a Donkey called Bernard ). Going ever more leftwing in Labours case simply reduces their pool of potential voters.

[otolith]

SNP has a mixture of left wing and nationalist voters in a region which largely returned leftist candidates to begin with. A lurch to the left by Labour may win back some of the lost votes in Scotland, and some of the people who voted for the Greens on economic policy grounds, but it makes the centre ground harder to defend.

I don't think Labour moving left will make the Tories move right, quite the opposite. It opens up gains in the centre ground.

[Puggit]

Scotland is a mix of left and very left voters - with a few others.

England was voting blue as the biggest party even during some of the bigger Labour wins under Blair. For Labour to lurch left will only mean more time in the wilderness. It might appeal in Wales, but copying the SNP is suicide.

[andy-xr]

gruffalo said:

The SNP are more left wing than Labour and they won a land slide victory, I think Labour are chasing that dream and it may work. After the televised debates I heard may of the hard of thinking say that the SNP woman would be who they would vote for if they could. They believed the promises that she made knowing she would never have to deliver against them.

They believe in the magic money tree and they may well vote for a more extreme leftist party.

Labour have still got the problem of 'we're in opposition, let's just shout No' to everything they do. There's nothing to fill the void if the policy they're shouting No to is removed. They dont have any answers, and they dont have anyone to articulate them even if they did.

Andy Burnham completely destroyed any credibility he had by abstaining, he did it to follow party advice, but that's not a leader candidate response. He should have stood up and done what he thought was right. Corbyn did, and that's some of the reason he's getting further forward. The problem is, Corbyn can never form a credible Government, he cant even form a credible party and he's not a leader. He's a thinker, he's better off coming up with ideas, giving them to someone else to polish and seeing them presented by someone as spinny as Blair was. Labour havent got anyone in the barn who could do that

[Scoredraw]

NoNeed said:

Cheese Mechanic said:

This is fking hilarious !! Yougov poll gives Corbyn a 17 point lead

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/#source=refresh

Its hugely amusing to see a bunch of idiots become an even bigger bunch of idiots.

Daniel Hannan thinks it could be bad for the conservatives http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015...


I do too.

Corbyn was written off at the start as being an also ran, but as time progresses - people have come to realise that he is the only credible choice to lead the Labour party. All the others are trying to out-Tory each other in the vain hope that the electorate will find them a more attractive option.....but in reality, there are just showing themselves to be vacuous, spineless non-entities with no moral or political conviction. Labour's troubles stem from going from Tony, to Gogs, to Ed (who simply never should have been given the reins in the first place) If his brother david had been given the job, labour might actually have been a credible political force instead of a political farce.

[Zod]

turbobloke said:

NoNeed said:

Daniel Hannan thinks it could be bad for the conservatives http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015...

Indeed he does.

Hannan said:

Fond as I am of the fellow, I am not one of the #ToriesForCorbyn who have sprung up across social media – and who, reportedly, include the Prime Minister. I can see the tactical attractions, obviously. A Corbyn-led Labour party would probably split. Even if it didn’t, it would sink to a 1983-style defeat. Against such a party, the Conservatives might be mediocre, pedestrian, self-serving and still stroll to victory.

Which is, of course, precisely the problem. Politics depends on credible opposition. Take away the fear of losing office and governing parties become flabby and often corrupt.

Following that with an analogy using what happened to Labour north of the border makes for good copy but it doesn't necessarily translate into a Tory mirror image.

Not long after the May result I'd commented that a disintegrating Labour Party wouldn't provide the Oopposition we need but a well-managed Labour Party of any shade of red could do that if it was...well managed. If it's also unpopular with Mondeo Man and Wolseley Woman then that's a bonus.

In this context it's interesting (!) to note the SNP's recent hostile take-over of the Opposition benches in the HoC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-33618323

1. Alan Brown, 2. Richard Arkless, 3. Carol Monaghan, 4. Alison Thewliss, 5. Hannah Bardell, 6. John Nicolson, 7. Patrick Grady, 8. Neil Gray, 9. Chris Law, 10. Tommy Sheppard and 11. Deidre Brock

Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 22 July 08:31

I never expected anything good from the newly successful SNP, but their behaviour since the election has been appalling. They have shown themselves to be utterly untrustworthy. Cameron must give them nothing and must implement EVEL ASAP.

[otolith]

Conflict is essentially between ideologues and pragmatists. Corbyn's lot would rather stand by their principles even if it means the country is run by the Conservatives (though they think they can win the electorate round - I think they are deluded, but we will see). The others think they can achieve more of their agenda by compromising to be electable.

[arguti]

On a lighter note, somebody on order order commented that if Jeremy Corbyn wins and Tom Watson is appointed deputy, Labour would be led by Tom and Jerry!

[johnxjsc1985]

arguti said:

On a lighter note, somebody on order order commented that if Jeremy Corbyn wins and Tom Watson is appointed deputy, Labour would be led by Tom and Jerry!

thats all folks.
Brilliant