Islamaphobia in Tory party?

[Dont like rolls]

jakesmith said:

But predictably jumped upon without so much as a second of fact checking by the very same people complaining that despite half a decade of an undeniable deluge of omnipresent racism at every level of the Labour Party organisation, it was just a smear against Dear Jeremy.

Jumped on....it is fking obvious it is bks, also note that facts (simple 1000-5000 numbers) checked.

Now, do you want to repeat your support for this bullst "story" that could not even qualify for Jackanory as it lacks credibility ?

Newspaper my arse, it is a Labour/Momentum comfort blanket .

[bitchstewie]

plasticpig said:

5000 members of Britain First have now joined the Conservatives according Britain Firsts leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/b...

Whilst they have their issues if there's any sniff of Britain First types trying to join the party I would expect their application to be rejected.

5000 seems a ridiculously high figure for a niche mob like that.

I don't think people can be afford to be complacent about the fact that the likes of Robinson and Britain First are making noises along the lines that they think they now have a "home" with Boris in charge of the Conservative Party.

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

I particularly picked that bit Jake because you have been so vociferous in the past about derailing threads with a dedicated topic. You had a go at me for it when I came back to this forum back when May was still in charge as I recall. It seems forum etiquette is a moveable feast for you depending on the day's agenda?

Second point, I have stated several times I do not think Boris is an islamaphobe, nor do I believe his burkha comments were islamaphobic. Calculated? Inflammatory? Ill advised? Yes, all of those things. But I have complemented him as a small c conservative, a liberal conservative and stated I would probably like his company. I do not think he is a good leader...no nuance, no subtlety there by me, that's my stall set out and it has been consistent. I have admitted an irrational (later rationalised) dislike of him as leader many times, as have you.

A third point. I have stated several times I could vote conservative under a different leader, I have spoken warmly about Ruth Davidson, Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke amongst others, admittedly conservatives from the more liberal side of the party, but people whose opinions and actions have resonance for me. I have also widely decried Corbyns lack of leadership skills. I'm not sure where you are going by constantly harping back to labour party problems. Again, there is a dedicated thread for Corbyn and antisemitism.

Lastly, I have referred to the Tory party as a great party, one with huge tradition, and my concern is that if the leadership does not deal swiftly and harshly with their islamaphobia problem in its infancy, a problem let's not forget many senior Tories are open and honest about, they run the risk of the same kind of epidemic that beset the Labour Party.

I think this answers your questions whilst refuting your points about using this thread to bad mouth Johnson or his party. This country needs strong leadership and the Tories need only look across the house to see the damage allegations of and infections with any kind of prejudice can do them long term. If former members of what is basically a xenophobic neo Nazi party are joining the Tories that is a dangerous sign that public, independent action is needed, not actions like awarding peerages to people like Zac Goldsmith. A minority of the public percieving the Tories as a white, Christian nationalist party can bring all sorts of loudmouthed loons out of the woodwork, and I would like at least one of our major parties to have a bit of international standing.

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th December 02:03

Again you avoid completely the premise of my post. You are saying that I am derailing this thread. I am saying that it is not derailing a thread to point out what actual entyism and racism looks like.

In the context of a discussion about racism in a political party, in a country with 2 major political parties, it is extremely relevant to the point being made.

You have now repeated above in the portion I quoted that you agree Johnson is not Islamaphobic. The idiotic comments and actions of these deplorable right wing morons are therefore simply an example of their own lack of intelligence.

I wish you had fact checked the ludicrous claim of BF having 5000 members, and questioned the publicity stunt of the leader and Tommy Robinson ‘joining’ The Conservatives. It’s a shame seeing a universally despised publicity seeking clown hoodwinking you. The fact that the media repeated it is utterly disgraceful and a shocking indicator of the utter bias at the heart of the Guardian.

Having 1000 supporters for whatever vile barmy cause the right wing have these days is not really very impressive, The Cheeky Girls who appeared with the song ‘Touch My Bum’ on XFactor 17 years ago have 2500 followers on Twitter for example

[rscott]

Dont like rolls said:

jakesmith said:

But predictably jumped upon without so much as a second of fact checking by the very same people complaining that despite half a decade of an undeniable deluge of omnipresent racism at every level of the Labour Party organisation, it was just a smear against Dear Jeremy.

Jumped on....it is fking obvious it is bks, also note that facts (simple 1000-5000 numbers) checked.

Now, do you want to repeat your support for this bullst "story" that could not even qualify for Jackanory as it lacks credibility ?

Newspaper my arse, it is a Labour/Momentum comfort blanket .

How can you fact check the number of members of Britain First? They claim 7500 members, Hope Not Hate estimate it at 1000, but no figures are published to confirm either figure.

[jakesmith]

rscott said:

How can you fact check the number of members of Britain First? They claim 7500 members, Hope Not Hate estimate it at 1000, but no figures are published to confirm either figure.

Hello, good morning, and please allow me to be the first to welcome you back after your disappointing recent flouncing off. They say you can’t keep a good man down eh. Please hang about this time, the best way to make your point is to make it.

I took ‘Hope Not Hate’s’ figure for this as they are an anti extremist group and therefore not incentivised to exaggerate numbers in the way that BF and the Guardian are as they are both hate filled extremist organisations with vile agendas.

I do hope this clarifies your question and please let me know if any further matters arise.

[rscott]

jakesmith said:

rscott said:

How can you fact check the number of members of Britain First? They claim 7500 members, Hope Not Hate estimate it at 1000, but no figures are published to confirm either figure.

Hello, good morning, and please allow me to be the first to welcome you back after your disappointing recent flouncing off. They say you can’t keep a good man down eh. Please hang about this time, the best way to make your point is to make it.

I took ‘Hope Not Hate’s’ figure for this as they are an anti extremist group and therefore not incentivised to exaggerate numbers in the way that BF and the Guardian are as they are both hate filled extremist organisations with vile agendas.

I do hope this clarifies your question and please let me know if any further matters arise.

Glad to read you accept Hope Not Hate as an accurate source.

They seem to think there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservative party:-

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/06/21/conserva...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/15/its-plai...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/29/the-theo...

[jakesmith]

rscott said:

Glad to read you accept Hope Not Hate as an accurate source.

They seem to think there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservative party:-

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/06/21/conserva...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/15/its-plai...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/29/the-theo...

I must say, R-Stoat, your utter lack of any grace at me welcoming you back following your juvenile flounce only a few days ago, where you slunk off as the conversation wasn’t going your way, has been noted. It is, in truth, the source of a small degree of disappointment. You clearly have a sharp brain and your contribution would be welcomed here but the way you do it is disengaging, and abrupt. But there! Let’s move on:

Yes, absolutely I see them as an accurate source for estimating Britain First membership, yes. Did you feel that you had set me a highly cunning trap?

[andy_s]

rscott said:

Glad to read you accept Hope Not Hate as an accurate source.

They seem to think there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservative party:-

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/06/21/conserva...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/15/its-plai...

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/11/29/the-theo...

This is why I said even Hopenothate say there are only a thousand. If it's anyone's interest to inflate figures (which, like the Southern Law Centre, they can tend to do, as you show) it's in theirs.

The fact the Guardian is quite happy to take the BF spokespersons word on this particular matter without any diligence when it looks bad for nasty Tories should be all you need to know.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Again you avoid completely the premise of my post. You are saying that I am derailing this thread. I am saying that it is not derailing a thread to point out what actual entyism and racism looks like.

In the context of a discussion about racism in a political party, in a country with 2 major political parties, it is extremely relevant to the point being made.

You have now repeated above in the portion I quoted that you agree Johnson is not Islamaphobic. The idiotic comments and actions of these deplorable right wing morons are therefore simply an example of their own lack of intelligence.

I wish you had fact checked the ludicrous claim of BF having 5000 members, and questioned the publicity stunt of the leader and Tommy Robinson ‘joining’ The Conservatives. It’s a shame seeing a universally despised publicity seeking clown hoodwinking you. The fact that the media repeated it is utterly disgraceful and a shocking indicator of the utter bias at the heart of the Guardian.

Having 1000 supporters for whatever vile barmy cause the right wing have these days is not really very impressive, The Cheeky Girls who appeared with the song ‘Touch My Bum’ on XFactor 17 years ago have 2500 followers on Twitter for example

It seems you are purposely missing my points here Jake. I specifically said whether it was 50 or 5000 that is to many people and specifically made the point about how the Tory party is perceived. If you do not wish to debate this that's cool. Some people don't even believe islamaphobia is 'a thing', perhaps you are one of those? If so I would genuinely like to debate this as many, including senior members of the Tory party disagree with that assertion, as does the editor of the Jewish Chronicle who recently apologised for any offence caused after they printed an article saying as much. (I'm not sure an apology was needed to be fair, we should always allow others to air their views lest we forget about the potential magnitude of the problem)

Jake, you do not seem keen on entering into a genuine debate about this, so I shall wish you good day and all the best and we can cross swords about other subjects at a later date, in the areas of the forum set aside for them, as I have no intention of retyping my points again and again in perpetuity. All the best fella. Enjoy your Sunday. Gbn

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 29th December 11:28

[plasticpig]

andy_s said:

This is why I said even Hopenothate say there are only a thousand. If it's anyone's interest to inflate figures (which, like the Southern Law Centre, they can tend to do, as you show) it's in theirs.

The fact the Guardian is quite happy to take the BF spokespersons word on this particular matter without any diligence when it looks bad for nasty Tories should be all you need to know.

Do you believe there is any prejudice against Muslims in the Conservative party?

[biggbn]

plasticpig said:

andy_s said:

This is why I said even Hopenothate say there are only a thousand. If it's anyone's interest to inflate figures (which, like the Southern Law Centre, they can tend to do, as you show) it's in theirs.

The fact the Guardian is quite happy to take the BF spokespersons word on this particular matter without any diligence when it looks bad for nasty Tories should be all you need to know.

Do you believe there is any prejudice against Muslims in the Conservative party?

This is the crux of the problem, yet a question many in here seem incapable or unwilling to answer, retreating into but Labour/but corbyn/but anti semitism comfort blanket at every opportunity.

I don't think anyone is seriously comparing the scale, the magnitude of the two parties problems, just identifying the potential pitfalls of having a problem of any size and not acting on it quickly, decisively and brutally lest it manifest itself in a more holistic manner going forward.

I want Boris to get any problems nipped in the bud, organise an independent enquiry, think more carefully about his actions and words going forward...unless he is courting support from all sides of the divide by using inflammatory and opaque language? (I doubt he is, he seems like a decent fella with regards predjuiduce.. being of migrant heritage himself it would be foolish and insensitive to be otherwise?)

Get this sorted i
or watch your party descend into mediocrity and in fighting and poor public perception like.. The Labour Party?

[bitchstewie]

biggbn said:

This is the crux of the problem, yet a question many in here seem incapable or unwilling to answer, retreating into but Labour/but corbyn/but anti semitism comfort blanket at every opportunity.

I don't think anyone is seriously comparing the scale, the magnitude of the two parties problems, just identifying the potential pitfalls of having a problem of any size and not acting on it quickly, decisively and brutally lest it manifest itself in a more holistic manner going forward.

I want Boris to get any problems nipped in the bud, organise an independent enquiry, think more carefully about his actions and words going forward...unless he is courting support from all sides of the divide by using inflammatory and opaque language? (I doubt he is, he seems like a decent fella with regards predjuiduce.. being of migrant heritage himself it would be foolish and insensitive to be otherwise?)

Get this sorted i
or watch your party descend into mediocrity and in fighting and poor public perception like.. The Labour Party?

Indeed.

Labour didn't just wake up one day with the stain of antisemitism hanging over them.

At some point it would have been "just a few bad apples".

Ignore it at your peril.

Edited by bhstewie on Sunday 29th December 12:29

[biggbn]

bhstewie said:

biggbn said:

This is the crux of the problem, yet a question many in here seem incapable or unwilling to answer, retreating into but Labour/but corbyn/but anti semitism comfort blanket at every opportunity.

I don't think anyone is seriously comparing the scale, the magnitude of the two parties problems, just identifying the potential pitfalls of having a problem of any size and not acting on it quickly, decisively and brutally lest it manifest itself in a more holistic manner going forward.

I want Boris to get any problems nipped in the bud, organise an independent enquiry, think more carefully about his actions and words going forward...unless he is courting support from all sides of the divide by using inflammatory and opaque language? (I doubt he is, he seems like a decent fella with regards predjuiduce.. being of migrant heritage himself it would be foolish and insensitive to be otherwise?)

Get this sorted i
or watch your party descend into mediocrity and in fighting and poor public perception like.. The Labour Party?

Indeed.

Labour didn't just wake up one day with the stain of antisemitism hanging over them.

At some point it would have been "just a few bad apples" who were igno.

Ignore it at your peril.

Thanks. Now, why do you understand what I have been writing for a few pages now but many (choose?) not to?

Have a great Sunday chaps. Away to take my dogs out and watch $hite TV, although not simultaneously!!

[bitchstewie]

biggbn said:

Thanks. Now, why do you understand what I have been writing for a few pages now but many (choose?) not to?

Have a great Sunday chaps. Away to take my dogs out and watch $hite TV, although not simultaneously!!

Personally it's patently obvious.

I think people tend to look at these things through party blinkers and genuinely think that if you criticise the Conservatives you automatically vote for and are defending Corbyn and vice versa.

Whatever the religions whatever the parties and whatever the perceived scale it's a stain that needs dealing with.

[Dont like rolls]

bhstewie said:

Indeed.

Labour didn't just wake up one day with the stain of antisemitism hanging over them.

At some point it would have been "just a few bad apples" who were igno.

Ignore it at your peril.

The "type" of people who become Conservative "activists"/members are not the same as the type that has become activists/members within Labour.

Ask why Momentum are a part of (and tolerated/encouraged by) the Labour Party, the BNP are not part of the Conservatives.

[anonymous-user]

plasticpig said:

Do you believe there is any prejudice against Muslims in the Conservative party?

None, or Labour. And no antisemitism either.

It’s all bks made up for political point scoring.

If Gingers were a persecuted group there would be nutters trawling around to find sleights against them too.

[amusingduck]

bhstewie said:

Indeed.

Labour didn't just wake up one day with the stain of antisemitism hanging over them.

At some point it would have been "just a few bad apples".

Ignore it at your peril.

I don't understand how you go from "a few bad apples" to being accused of institutional racism and being investigated by the EHRC. ]

What happened in the middle?!

[biggbn]

amusingduck said:

bhstewie said:

Indeed.

Labour didn't just wake up one day with the stain of antisemitism hanging over them.

At some point it would have been "just a few bad apples".

Ignore it at your peril.

I don't understand how you go from "a few bad apples" to being accused of institutional racism and being investigated by the EHRC. ]

What happened in the middle?!

This is the point, I think, we are making. At some point the problem would have only been on the scale of the Tory party problem. Ignore it at your peril

[bitchstewie]

amusingduck said:

I don't understand how you go from "a few bad apples" to being accused of institutional racism and being investigated by the EHRC. ]

What happened in the middle?!

Presumably by denying there's a problem and doing nothing about it and then handling it appallingly badly when it becomes obvious that there is a problem.

[Dont like rolls]

amusingduck said:

I don't understand how you go from "a few bad apples" to being accused of institutional racism and being investigated by the EHRC. ]

What happened in the middle?!

Ed Millipratt opened the door, that is what happened.