Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
JagLover said:
hyphen said:
Blair: EU is willing to give Britain control over immigration to stop Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/14/eu-lead...
If Bliar ever released the detailed transcripts of what EU leaders told him, no doubt it would be cr*p like "emergency brakes" , rather than an end to FMOL.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/14/eu-lead...
The EU is totally committed to FMOL.
Even Sir John Chilcot was less than impressed with Blair and reading between the lines didn't believe everything that Blair spouted.
Slimy weasel sums Blair up.
JagLover said:
If Bliar ever released the detailed transcripts of what EU leaders told him, no doubt it would be cr*p like "emergency brakes" , rather than an end to FMOL.
The EU is totally committed to FMOL.
What would an acceptable measure look like to you? The EU is totally committed to FMOL.
Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
///ajd said:
What would an acceptable measure look like to you?
Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
FMOL is a source of tension between the EU and Switzerland Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/swit...
JagLover said:
///ajd said:
What would an acceptable measure look like to you?
Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
FMOL is a source of tension between the EU and Switzerland Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/swit...
Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity.
It is worth watching the video about what Switzerland was like before it effectively replicated its own version of sound access to the SM. The summary was Switzerland was not in a good place before it had negotiated good SM access.
///ajd said:
What would an acceptable measure look like to you?
Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
I never followed up on this- what happened after the Swiss voted in a referendum to end FMOL?Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
Re: Blair and staying in a "reformed" EU, that's what Cameron tried to demonstrate.
glazbagun said:
///ajd said:
What would an acceptable measure look like to you?
Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
I never followed up on this- what happened after the Swiss voted in a referendum to end FMOL?Some flexciteers like Sway suggest a swiss model is sufficiently better than our current situation to be worth pursuing. Are the swiss controlling immigration well enough?
Re: Blair and staying in a "reformed" EU, that's what Cameron tried to demonstrate.
This video gives some insight into the issues affecting Switzerland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU
///ajd said:
The swiss govt have kind of fumbled that result as they realise it is potentially hugely damaging to their economy to enact it. In that respect the politicians have the resolve to do what is best for the country and resist the lure of populism, though they have had a half hearted stab at being seen to try with the EU but not too hard or put themselves in a corner. Sadly a lure our own muppets have failed and continue to fail to resist. Hence the total mess we're in.
This video gives some insight into the issues affecting Switzerland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU
The lure of democracy for accuracy.This video gives some insight into the issues affecting Switzerland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU
///ajd said:
FiF said:
hyphen said:
Blair: EU is willing to give Britain control over immigration to stop Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/14/eu-lead...
Thought the pick and choose idea was a non starter.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/14/eu-lead...
It could work.
Blair, Alistair Campbell and the rest have a flagrant disregard for democracy and are clear that they intend to overturn Brexit "by any means possible". Repeatedly using the discredited term "hard Brexit" is par for the course. I'm not sure what Blair thinks he'll achieve by speaking out at this point - to the mind of a lot of British people he represents the very worst kind of politics - interested only in what suits the political elite. Being on the side of the EU does very little to improve their standing in the eyes of those critics.
Nor can I imagine that the EU would suddenly cave in. Could you imagine what message that would send to other countries who want special treatment?
There is a fundamental difference between us and Switzerland in that the direction of travel is opposite i.e. we are member looking to transition out whereas they are in a transitional state begrudgingly increasing their integration with the EU.
I haven't heard them say it but the brexiteers on the left must surely be proponents of swiss style bilateral treaties, the speeches Tony Benn used to give clearly point that way and therefore surely there must be a growing realisation that something similar as a short to medium term state is really the only realistic out option.
The thing that really angers me about the hardline brexiteers like that t
t Rhys Moog is that they are so short sighted they can't see their game being out-maneovered. Their intransigence and inflexibility is in real danger of leaving us in a position where a vote happens in 18 months time to save us from a cliff edge, which in turn results in the whole thing being forgotten about. The EU side have already made it clear they are leaving that door open. Nothing would be more insane and daft than Brexit being scuppered by the bloody Brexiteers themselves, but frankly this looks the most likely outcome at this point.
I haven't heard them say it but the brexiteers on the left must surely be proponents of swiss style bilateral treaties, the speeches Tony Benn used to give clearly point that way and therefore surely there must be a growing realisation that something similar as a short to medium term state is really the only realistic out option.
The thing that really angers me about the hardline brexiteers like that t
t Rhys Moog is that they are so short sighted they can't see their game being out-maneovered. Their intransigence and inflexibility is in real danger of leaving us in a position where a vote happens in 18 months time to save us from a cliff edge, which in turn results in the whole thing being forgotten about. The EU side have already made it clear they are leaving that door open. Nothing would be more insane and daft than Brexit being scuppered by the bloody Brexiteers themselves, but frankly this looks the most likely outcome at this point.///ajd said:
...
Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
Controlling immigration, having SM access (whatever that means - WTO gives SM access) plus, let's say, being able to sort our own trade deals where we choose, our own law statute being supreme for UK matters and having a soupcon more transparency over the fees would be lovely. If it helped those of a Remain persuasion rationalise life I would be happy to call this "remaining in the EU" and would be over the moon with the outcome. (We'd need to stay outside of the Euro too).Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
These things will, according to the current stance of the EU (including things like Cameron's negotiation etc), never happen though. "Evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration" is a non-starter. It does not fit with the EU's current political doctrine and they are showing zero signs of it ever doing so. Quite the opposite.
Trying to pretend otherwise is either fooling yourself or trying to fool everyone else into agreeing with your position
I don't see the Swiss government ignoring their electorate indefinitely. Governments that do this do not end up in a good place. I'd argue that our own governments doing what's "best" for us since 1992 is precisely what has got us in the mess we are currently in with the EU. The mistakes didn't start and stop with Cameron coming back empty handed and calling the referendum. They are much deeper seated than that.
Murph7355 said:
///ajd said:
...
Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
Controlling immigration, having SM access (whatever that means - WTO gives SM access) plus, let's say, being able to sort our own trade deals where we choose, our own law statute being supreme for UK matters and having a soupcon more transparency over the fees would be lovely. If it helped those of a Remain persuasion rationalise life I would be happy to call this "remaining in the EU" and would be over the moon with the outcome. (We'd need to stay outside of the Euro too).Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
These things will, according to the current stance of the EU (including things like Cameron's negotiation etc), never happen though. "Evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration" is a non-starter. It does not fit with the EU's current political doctrine and they are showing zero signs of it ever doing so. Quite the opposite.
Trying to pretend otherwise is either fooling yourself or trying to fool everyone else into agreeing with your position
I don't see the Swiss government ignoring their electorate indefinitely. Governments that do this do not end up in a good place. I'd argue that our own governments doing what's "best" for us since 1992 is precisely what has got us in the mess we are currently in with the EU. The mistakes didn't start and stop with Cameron coming back empty handed and calling the referendum. They are much deeper seated than that.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
Pan Pan Pan said:
What I find amazing is that it seems at no time before or since 2016 has the EU ever asked the question/s, WHY, did the UK voted to leave the EU.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
Wrong.It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
They believe that the union is the correct way forward and the UK's sovereignty is the incorrect way forward. They have better things to do to try to persuade us otherwise.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
What I find amazing is that it seems at no time before or since 2016 has the EU ever asked the question/s, WHY, did the UK voted to leave the EU.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
Wrong.It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
They believe that the union is the correct way forward and the UK's sovereignty is the incorrect way forward. They have better things to do to try to persuade us otherwise.
The EU's 'better things to do' are clearly why the UK voted to leave.
Pan Pan Pan said:
What I find amazing is that it seems at no time before or since 2016 has the EU ever asked the question/s, WHY, did the UK voted to leave the EU.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
They do not care. Their political direction is all that matters and as far as they are concerned it is beyond any other issue - even when it's the second biggest contributor saying "hang on a minute".It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
The UK has always been positioned differently to the other nations, so maybe this is fair enough - I can rationalise that. It's probably best for both parties that we leave (though the EU financial controller will have difficulty accepting that!). But then taking a stance that the UK must be seen to be "punished" makes no sense simply because we are positioned so differently anyway.
They'll have to listen eventually. Belief in the EU as a political project is far from universal across the people of the EU member states. But change will eventually be forced on them IMO.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
What I find amazing is that it seems at no time before or since 2016 has the EU ever asked the question/s, WHY, did the UK voted to leave the EU.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
Wrong.It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
They believe that the union is the correct way forward and the UK's sovereignty is the incorrect way forward. They have better things to do to try to persuade us otherwise.
Following the result of the UK referendum, and the fact that many people across Europe are deeply unhappy with the way the EU is being run, they should have done some research into why this is the case, and done something about it. Instead they are so smug and arrogant, they ride roughshod over the wishes of the people (or in the case of the UK, try to) When the EU`s second greatest net contributor of funds into EU coffers, and biggest single market walks away, and Germany has to pick up the tab for keeping the failed ponzi scheme alive for a little while longer, it will be in trouble. Then, and perhaps only then they will realize that the way the EU is currently being operated is fatally flawed, but even then I would not hold my breath, waiting for that.
Murph7355 said:
///ajd said:
...
Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
Controlling immigration, having SM access (whatever that means - WTO gives SM access) plus, let's say, being able to sort our own trade deals where we choose, our own law statute being supreme for UK matters and having a soupcon more transparency over the fees would be lovely. If it helped those of a Remain persuasion rationalise life I would be happy to call this "remaining in the EU" and would be over the moon with the outcome. (We'd need to stay outside of the Euro too).Infact I used to argue Switzerland had similar concerns & issues but I was always told (e.g. by Sway) they had a much better system - the implication being lets flexcit and evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration and having SM access. These voices seem to have gone now, but wonder if they still believe that argument has validity....
These things will, according to the current stance of the EU (including things like Cameron's negotiation etc), never happen though. "Evolve an EFTA type solution into controlling immigration" is a non-starter. It does not fit with the EU's current political doctrine and they are showing zero signs of it ever doing so. Quite the opposite.
Trying to pretend otherwise is either fooling yourself or trying to fool everyone else into agreeing with your position
I don't see the Swiss government ignoring their electorate indefinitely. Governments that do this do not end up in a good place. I'd argue that our own governments doing what's "best" for us since 1992 is precisely what has got us in the mess we are currently in with the EU. The mistakes didn't start and stop with Cameron coming back empty handed and calling the referendum. They are much deeper seated than that.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Wrong.
Following the result of the UK referendum, and the fact that many people across Europe are deeply unhappy with the way the EU is being run, they should have done some research into why this is the case, and done something about it. Instead they are so smug and arrogant, they ride roughshod over the wishes of the people (or in the case of the UK, try to) When the EU`s second greatest net contributor of funds into EU coffers, and biggest single market walks away, and Germany has to pick up the tab for keeping the failed ponzi scheme alive for a little while longer, it will be in trouble. Then, and perhaps only then they will realize that the way the EU is currently being operated is fatally flawed, but even then I would not hold my breath, waiting for that.
You clearly don't know how a ponzi scheme works.Following the result of the UK referendum, and the fact that many people across Europe are deeply unhappy with the way the EU is being run, they should have done some research into why this is the case, and done something about it. Instead they are so smug and arrogant, they ride roughshod over the wishes of the people (or in the case of the UK, try to) When the EU`s second greatest net contributor of funds into EU coffers, and biggest single market walks away, and Germany has to pick up the tab for keeping the failed ponzi scheme alive for a little while longer, it will be in trouble. Then, and perhaps only then they will realize that the way the EU is currently being operated is fatally flawed, but even then I would not hold my breath, waiting for that.
Murph7355 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
What I find amazing is that it seems at no time before or since 2016 has the EU ever asked the question/s, WHY, did the UK voted to leave the EU.
It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
They do not care. Their political direction is all that matters and as far as they are concerned it is beyond any other issue - even when it's the second biggest contributor saying "hang on a minute".It is as if they really know the answer/s but don't want to go there, because if they were truly democratic, it would mean they would have to seriously reform themselves, and the way they operate, and that seems to be something they really really don't want to do.
The UK has always been positioned differently to the other nations, so maybe this is fair enough - I can rationalise that. It's probably best for both parties that we leave (though the EU financial controller will have difficulty accepting that!). But then taking a stance that the UK must be seen to be "punished" makes no sense simply because we are positioned so differently anyway.
They'll have to listen eventually. Belief in the EU as a political project is far from universal across the people of the EU member states. But change will eventually be forced on them IMO.
Of course, with any democracy, you must demonstrate continuously that it's the right course. When you fail to win the argument then you must change. This is what the eu does not understand.
How many times have countries had a referendum to reject giving more powers to the EU?
The EU's response.....
... You voted wrong... have another referendum to get the right answer.
I am convinced the EU will deliberately propose a stty deal in the hope we buckle, backdown and stay in.
Once we leave - I am sure we won't be the last.
The EU's response.....
... You voted wrong... have another referendum to get the right answer.
I am convinced the EU will deliberately propose a s
tty deal in the hope we buckle, backdown and stay in.Once we leave - I am sure we won't be the last.
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