Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 3)
Discussion
Oh, and airlines are indeed recruiting - and hard.
They're not advertising though, as there are graduate pools at all the decent flight schools that are where they are getting them from - all those cadets that graduated during the last two years when no one has needed new entrants.
eJ have relaunched their MPL cadet programme (brits allowed). That's perhaps the biggest indicator of the shift in demand - they're trying to ringfence a bunch of the very best candidates to being solely orange. Just like junior development signings at football clubs.
As per my link yesterday - loads of older pilots have retired or left. There was already insufficient training capacity to meet demand pre-pandemic - and we're seeing RPK numbers bouncing straight back to where they were before pandemic once you exclude restrictions.
So, the growth/demand is just as it was when there was a looming problem pre-pandemic (hence the creation of the MPL route) - and there's even less supply.
There probably hasn't been a better time to become a pilot since the dawn of the jet age/package holiday. Far less "dead men's shoes" to gain seniority, etc. - only counter is the increasing 'threat' of automation.
They're not advertising though, as there are graduate pools at all the decent flight schools that are where they are getting them from - all those cadets that graduated during the last two years when no one has needed new entrants.
eJ have relaunched their MPL cadet programme (brits allowed). That's perhaps the biggest indicator of the shift in demand - they're trying to ringfence a bunch of the very best candidates to being solely orange. Just like junior development signings at football clubs.
As per my link yesterday - loads of older pilots have retired or left. There was already insufficient training capacity to meet demand pre-pandemic - and we're seeing RPK numbers bouncing straight back to where they were before pandemic once you exclude restrictions.
So, the growth/demand is just as it was when there was a looming problem pre-pandemic (hence the creation of the MPL route) - and there's even less supply.
There probably hasn't been a better time to become a pilot since the dawn of the jet age/package holiday. Far less "dead men's shoes" to gain seniority, etc. - only counter is the increasing 'threat' of automation.
Kermit power said:
Oneball said:
aturnick54 said:
How do you apply for a job you are no longer eligible to apply for under citizenship grounds?
Who says you’re not eligible?Nationality as a condition of employment is only usually used in very specific circumstances eg national security.
The EU does say you have to consider recruiting from EU first but there’s no bar on foreign workers.
I think Brexit was a monumentally bad idea but there’s almost as much guff on the Remain side as on Boris’s bus
https://recrutement.airfrance.com/offre-de-emploi/...
The key point you're after says this...
être de nationalité française, de l'un des autres Etats membres de la Communauté européenne ou de la Confédération helvétique.
Which, if you don't speak French, says you must be a French, Swiss or EU national to apply. Not have a visa, or planning to apply for a visa or citizenship at some point in the future, but actually be a citizen already.
I did try a few other airlines, but unsurprisingly many aren't recruiting at the moment, and it's surprisingly difficult to find their applicant requirements when there isn't a job to apply for.
It’s 2 years out of date.
I’m a remain voter through and through. I think that Brexit was a national catastrophe, I think there’s no possible benefit to it other than some weird notion of freedom (in a Mel Gibson voice) and the possibility that someone’s little Joseph will take a strawberry picking job off some horrid European. ;-)
But the majority of people voted for it. Forget the stupid guff, be positive, look forward and it’ll sort itself out.
Sway said:
TDK-C60 said:
stongle said:
TDK-C60 said:
Tough crowd getting your point accepted though
No. He's talking nuts. It's another disaffected remainer complaining about the option premium, not the win. The later will always eclipse the former. Even if it takes us an election cycle (or 2) to sort it.
Not sure why there is so much frothing.
Then it was "but you can't get an EASA licence without doing it in the EU" - proven to be rubbish.
Then "if you've a CAA licence, it's useless" - proven to be rubbish, and conversion shown to be quick and simple.
Finally, it's "ah, but the French Flag Carrier won't hire you" - which is true, but seems a little bit of a niche issue, perhaps effecting I dunno, half a dozen people?
That's why the piss is being taken.
Still what do those who have done it know?
The discussion over recent days has been amusing to say the least. Similar to comments from Garvin, better things to do than try one's patience on it.
aturnick54 said:
Leave voters don't like facts, might explain it
No I think you will find it’s you remnants that don’t like facts !! It must be quite upsetting for quivering little snowflakes and gravy train riders alike that all the great remain predictions were wrong, sorry bout that .
Sway said:
Oh, and airlines are indeed recruiting - and hard.
They're not advertising though, as there are graduate pools at all the decent flight schools that are where they are getting them from - all those cadets that graduated during the last two years when no one has needed new entrants.
eJ have relaunched their MPL cadet programme (brits allowed). That's perhaps the biggest indicator of the shift in demand - they're trying to ringfence a bunch of the very best candidates to being solely orange. Just like junior development signings at football clubs.
As per my link yesterday - loads of older pilots have retired or left. There was already insufficient training capacity to meet demand pre-pandemic - and we're seeing RPK numbers bouncing straight back to where they were before pandemic once you exclude restrictions.
So, the growth/demand is just as it was when there was a looming problem pre-pandemic (hence the creation of the MPL route) - and there's even less supply.
There probably hasn't been a better time to become a pilot since the dawn of the jet age/package holiday. Far less "dead men's shoes" to gain seniority, etc. - only counter is the increasing 'threat' of automation.
Which airlines are recruiting hard at the moment?They're not advertising though, as there are graduate pools at all the decent flight schools that are where they are getting them from - all those cadets that graduated during the last two years when no one has needed new entrants.
eJ have relaunched their MPL cadet programme (brits allowed). That's perhaps the biggest indicator of the shift in demand - they're trying to ringfence a bunch of the very best candidates to being solely orange. Just like junior development signings at football clubs.
As per my link yesterday - loads of older pilots have retired or left. There was already insufficient training capacity to meet demand pre-pandemic - and we're seeing RPK numbers bouncing straight back to where they were before pandemic once you exclude restrictions.
So, the growth/demand is just as it was when there was a looming problem pre-pandemic (hence the creation of the MPL route) - and there's even less supply.
There probably hasn't been a better time to become a pilot since the dawn of the jet age/package holiday. Far less "dead men's shoes" to gain seniority, etc. - only counter is the increasing 'threat' of automation.
stongle said:
Lots of anecdotal evidence saying the contrary. No one believes we could leave the EU without consequence. Increased trade friction, additional job hoops etc; were all given outcomes. But, UK Labour mobility continues and there has been no digital collapse in trade....
It's all perspective, if you make yourself or believe you are a victim of those nasty Brexiteers and their sheisty politicians; who is really losing out? Leave didn't win because of those shiesty spivs, the UK self inflected the leave vote. We have to right those wrongs, and seek as many compensating opportunities to cover the exit premium. Businesses aren't losing their dicks and giving up, they are seeking as many ways possible to make Brexit work or find replacement revenue. Rather than being obsessed with the reasons for the change, maybe just get on with it?
Yip. It can be both. Incremental challenges to hiring a brit vs an EU citizen will play into hiring decisions for some. As will location decisions for offices. High earners with specific skill sets will always be in demand and it'll always be much easier for them to move, they aren't and never will be the real concern. At the same time it's a bit of friction that's preferably avoided if possible. We don't filter people on what passport they hold when recruiting but there is an awareness in the back of my head that with offices on both sides of the Irish border some employees are more transferrable than others when it comes to ability to move between them or work onsite elsewhere. Common travel area only applies to UK and Irish, EU FoM only applies to EU passport holders etc, it's not a big problem at all but it's something to be aware of. We regularly place people onsite inside and outside the EU (mostly US and Canada for outside EU as mentioned before mostly due to sales reach than any form filling reason, I've done more criminality checks than I'd like to mention), it's easier inside the EU, that's just practical realities. Whether those small bits of friction become statistically significant across the economy are yet to be seen, but they're bound to have some impact in my view as that's just the reality of minor difficulties when you get into bigger numbers. There was no mass exodus of EU workers from our company post Brexit, a few did go back to Spain and France as a result but we'd have facilitated anything necessary to help them to stay if they wanted and although maybe not happy about the extra hassle it would just be absorbed as a cost of doing business. Still, at least I know a few people I can call upon for a good time in France and Spain now, there's always an upside It's all perspective, if you make yourself or believe you are a victim of those nasty Brexiteers and their sheisty politicians; who is really losing out? Leave didn't win because of those shiesty spivs, the UK self inflected the leave vote. We have to right those wrongs, and seek as many compensating opportunities to cover the exit premium. Businesses aren't losing their dicks and giving up, they are seeking as many ways possible to make Brexit work or find replacement revenue. Rather than being obsessed with the reasons for the change, maybe just get on with it?
.El stovey said:
Which airlines are recruiting hard at the moment?
Off the top of my head for ones actively reviewing graduate pools and hiring from them:Ryanair
Wizz
TAP
eJ
Most of those are actively relaunching tied cadet programmes for the demand they're seeing coming in 18 or so months.
The US Airlines are going insane - yes, there's conversion costs to go there and as has been mentioned the US is a git for visas from anywhere. If you've a N Reg light aircraft that could even remotely be suitable for training you can name your price at the mo. Flight schools are losing instructors at double time as soon as they've built hours.
Middle Eastern ones too, pretty much the only ones who didn't pull MPL programmes during pandemic.
They're all seeing what's happening with demand as soon as they're able to effectively operate back as normal.
El stovey said:
Which airlines are recruiting hard at the moment?
I suspect you know much more than me on this subject. Son of a friend is going through commercial pilot training at the moment (in Florida I think but don't quote me on that) and struggled at the start to fund the training. Friend is a single mother on a not very good wage and the training costs are challenging for her to say the least but she managed to raise the funds for her son's dream job. I hope it pays off but I don't think it's the career it once was.Murph7355 said:
loafer123 said:
I’m increasingly of the view there is only one of them, just lots of accounts.
Heli123 (classic stuff above ), Piha.....Make a bit of a joke of the rules. But makes a great example of how noise can be amplified (all ways).
The posts are probably written in the departure lounge at Dublin Airport.
Sway said:
Off the top of my head for ones actively reviewing graduate pools and hiring from them:
Ryanair
Wizz
TAP
eJ
Most of those are actively relaunching tied cadet programmes for the demand they're seeing coming in 18 or so months.
The US Airlines are going insane - yes, there's conversion costs to go there and as has been mentioned the US is a git for visas from anywhere. If you've a N Reg light aircraft that could even remotely be suitable for training you can name your price at the mo. Flight schools are losing instructors at double time as soon as they've built hours.
Middle Eastern ones too, pretty much the only ones who didn't pull MPL programmes during pandemic.
They're all seeing what's happening with demand as soon as they're able to effectively operate back as normal.
There are alot of spare pilots, just ones not getting paid. The idea that you name your price is a little exorbitant. Friend left BA based out of Hong Kong 4 years ago with an Instagram house, 3 staff came back to Blighty only to be fobbed off to a discount airline, based himself out of Genveva well guess who was first to go when Covid hit. Ryanair
Wizz
TAP
eJ
Most of those are actively relaunching tied cadet programmes for the demand they're seeing coming in 18 or so months.
The US Airlines are going insane - yes, there's conversion costs to go there and as has been mentioned the US is a git for visas from anywhere. If you've a N Reg light aircraft that could even remotely be suitable for training you can name your price at the mo. Flight schools are losing instructors at double time as soon as they've built hours.
Middle Eastern ones too, pretty much the only ones who didn't pull MPL programmes during pandemic.
They're all seeing what's happening with demand as soon as they're able to effectively operate back as normal.
Their only income was his Mrs's Yoga youtube channel as she has big cans and they moved into a 2 bedroom apartment. He was flying unpaid to keep his flight cred in 2020/1 and has got a job now. But there were loads of applicants and he has taken a BIG paycut, basically a step back to 2008 for him.
They have been waiting for it to bounce back since August 2020 not 22
sisu said:
There are alot of spare pilots, just ones not getting paid. The idea that you name your price is a little exorbitant. Friend left BA based out of Hong Kong 4 years ago with an Instagram house, 3 staff came back to Blighty only to be fobbed off to a discount airline, based himself out of Genveva well guess who was first to go when Covid hit.
Their only income was his Mrs's Yoga youtube channel as she has big cans and they moved into a 2 bedroom apartment. He was flying unpaid to keep his flight cred in 2020/1 and has got a job now. But there were loads of applicants and he has taken a BIG paycut, basically a step back to 2008 for him.
They have been waiting for it to bounce back since August 2020 not 22
Anylinks to the yoga channel ? Their only income was his Mrs's Yoga youtube channel as she has big cans and they moved into a 2 bedroom apartment. He was flying unpaid to keep his flight cred in 2020/1 and has got a job now. But there were loads of applicants and he has taken a BIG paycut, basically a step back to 2008 for him.
They have been waiting for it to bounce back since August 2020 not 22
Smiler. said:
crankedup5 said:
It would be truly remarkable if this was a genuine new poster to NPE, almost six years after the event !! My money is on it being Heli123 . Whoever it is certainly brings a chuckle to the thread
Was that son of slasher?What happened to the purple squid?
sisu said:
Sway said:
Off the top of my head for ones actively reviewing graduate pools and hiring from them:
Ryanair
Wizz
TAP
eJ
Most of those are actively relaunching tied cadet programmes for the demand they're seeing coming in 18 or so months.
The US Airlines are going insane - yes, there's conversion costs to go there and as has been mentioned the US is a git for visas from anywhere. If you've a N Reg light aircraft that could even remotely be suitable for training you can name your price at the mo. Flight schools are losing instructors at double time as soon as they've built hours.
Middle Eastern ones too, pretty much the only ones who didn't pull MPL programmes during pandemic.
They're all seeing what's happening with demand as soon as they're able to effectively operate back as normal.
There are alot of spare pilots, just ones not getting paid. The idea that you name your price is a little exorbitant. Friend left BA based out of Hong Kong 4 years ago with an Instagram house, 3 staff came back to Blighty only to be fobbed off to a discount airline, based himself out of Genveva well guess who was first to go when Covid hit. Ryanair
Wizz
TAP
eJ
Most of those are actively relaunching tied cadet programmes for the demand they're seeing coming in 18 or so months.
The US Airlines are going insane - yes, there's conversion costs to go there and as has been mentioned the US is a git for visas from anywhere. If you've a N Reg light aircraft that could even remotely be suitable for training you can name your price at the mo. Flight schools are losing instructors at double time as soon as they've built hours.
Middle Eastern ones too, pretty much the only ones who didn't pull MPL programmes during pandemic.
They're all seeing what's happening with demand as soon as they're able to effectively operate back as normal.
Their only income was his Mrs's Yoga youtube channel as she has big cans and they moved into a 2 bedroom apartment. He was flying unpaid to keep his flight cred in 2020/1 and has got a job now. But there were loads of applicants and he has taken a BIG paycut, basically a step back to 2008 for him.
They have been waiting for it to bounce back since August 2020 not 22
Loads of the old guard have cleared out for various reasons, one being as you say renegotiation of contracts in a very depressed (thanks to covid) market.
The key thing being seen is how quickly things are bouncing back, as soon as restrictions and hassles get reduced back to normal levels.
Sway said:
"Name your price" was in relation to training suitable aircraft...
Loads of the old guard have cleared out for various reasons, one being as you say renegotiation of contracts in a very depressed (thanks to covid) market.
The key thing being seen is how quickly things are bouncing back, as soon as restrictions and hassles get reduced back to normal levels.
Your assessment is highly optimistic though especially when you look at who is actually recruiting rather than looking at holding pools etc. Loads of the old guard have cleared out for various reasons, one being as you say renegotiation of contracts in a very depressed (thanks to covid) market.
The key thing being seen is how quickly things are bouncing back, as soon as restrictions and hassles get reduced back to normal levels.
I’m involved in pilot training and recruitment in my airline and that’s what I see and what people in other airlines I know doing the same roles tell me also.
Some airlines that got rid of too many pilots at the start of the pandemic are refilling those positions but it’s with type rated pilots with experience not mpl schemes..
Is easyjet actually recruiting at the moment?
Ivan stewart said:
No I think you will find it’s you remnants that don’t like facts !!
It must be quite upsetting for quivering little snowflakes and gravy train riders alike that all the great remain predictions were wrong, sorry bout that .
You mean all the queues going on in Kent, are they all project fear still? It must be quite upsetting for quivering little snowflakes and gravy train riders alike that all the great remain predictions were wrong, sorry bout that .
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