UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
Esseesse said:
If we remain in the EU as we are at the moment, or if the Conservative referendum happens and we vote to stay in then I think there's a very good chance that we'll get the Euro eventually.
What do you mean "eventually"? Twenty years? Fifty years? Two hundred years?"Eventually" means nothing in a historical context. Two hundred years ago, in 1814, if you had said that you were worried that "eventually" we might be in a treaty with the French, everyone would have said you were barking mad. But look what happened. Within 60 years we were working in cahoots with the French and within 100 years we had the 'Entente Cordiale'.
You have no idea what conditions may prevail at some (unspecified) date in the future. To say you're convinced we'll "get the Euro eventually" is errant nonsense because you can't predict future eventualities. Maybe, one day, there will be conditions (I haven't a clue what they'll be) that will make us want to join. Maybe, one day, we won't want to join. Maybe, one day, we'll all be using the Renminbi and talking Mandarin and going to work in flying cars! Nobody has a clue what the distant future holds.
As for the next decade or so, no UK government in their right mind would dream of doing such a thing. As I said before, they'd be out on their ear within days if they tried it. Nobody is that stupid, not even The LibDems.
Your argument, quite frankly, is full of holes. In fact there are so many holes, there isn't even an argument there. What remains is a transparent attempt to provoke the hard of thinking into an unnecessary state of fear. Shame on you.
Mojocvh said:
Boy, you really like the sound of your own voice don't you....
Coming from the person who posted the piece below, I take that as a huge compliment. The way you combine the patriotic spirit of Biggles with the gushing 'first day of term' thrills, from one of Enid Blyton's Mallory Towers novels... It's absolute literary genius, old chap. Mojocvh said:
FIRST day back at school is when the teachers eye the fresh young faces with a mixture of anticipation and excitement.The same goes for the new class.
A new term, a new set of targets and responsibilities, new subjects, new classmates and for many, an entirely new experience. The buzz of something exciting with a cautious sprinkle of apprehension fills the air with an energy of conversation, industry and the warming satisfaction of optimism.
So was the first week of the EU Parliament. With UKIP strengthening their representation to become the biggest party the UK has delivered to the European Union, there were certainly whispers in the corridors of power about our People's Army marching on Strasbourg
Yet far from being the middle class, elderly, male, obsessive and boring brigade of amateur enthusiasts the British media would like to portray, here was a team of true revolution. The voice of discontented Britain was potted in the zeal of the 24 new UKIP MEPs and taken unadulterated into the beating heart of the EU.
One is an Earl, the half- brother of Lady Diana, long divorced from the inherited Tory Blue tribalism of his peers. Two are salt-of-the earth Scousers, accents and grit not at all reduced by some political polishing machine. One, an industrious Muslim business man, whose broad Bradford accent and Paksitani colloquialisms reveal as much about British heritage as the next person. One, a larger than life openly gay Scot who was the first MEP to proudly walk into chamber in kilt and sporen (do not ask the cliché underwear question please!)
There's a tough talking, no-nonsense ex commando with a passion for patriotism and the lessons of the front line tattooed on his heart. The steelworker's daughter side by side with the miner's daughter. The umbrella maker of Gypsy extraction joins forces with the gentle Welsh Mormon. A group of people, in all their colour and variety, united by a single cause, as only Britain can do.
But the people's army has not been carefully engineered by an imaginative press office. What is the biggest rainbow alliance that has ever entered a Parliament as part of a UK political party is exactly how we describe it: A passionate, conjoined family from all walks of life, bound by the quest to restore democracy, and truly represent the people of Britain.
And that is what we are going to do.
Day one of the new term saw the grand opening of Parliament with an orchestra positioned in the bowels of the chamber to momentously perform Ode To Joy, the adopted EU anthem. As the misty eyed federalists stood to attention, affirmed by the proclamation of their ever powerful political project, the 24 UKIP MEPs also rose, and turned, backs against the flag, the anthem and the entire aspiration of the creation of a United States of Europe. No gesture could represent Britain more. No hollow words spoken in strategic oration by a Prime Minister desperate to garner votes. Our actions were at once symbolic, and one hundred per cent sincere.
The real fun however began on day two. The first debate saw the avian featured Van Rompuy and the bulldoggish Barroso preside over the new class as austere Headmaster and Deputy at school assembly. But with 24 Union Jacks fluttering on a spread of desks in one corner of the chamber, it was clear who would be the disruptive characters among the amassed. As the morning went on, the usually hyper-controlled and fastidiously regulated dreary procedures of the European Parliament became subject to combative interjections and lively debate, raining down constant interjections, questions and points of order that the otherwise bleakly beige and militaristic exercise of the European Parliament is rarely subjected to. The spirit of the Mother of Parliaments, the House of Commons, started shaking that first plenary session in Strasbourg to the core. Never before have they seen such assertiveness and challenge in numbers.
UKIP has not gone to Brussels and Strasbourg to be placid and inert. We made a promise to you to fight for what you believe in. And that is what we are going to do.
Over the coming weeks I will be announcing a front bench of spokesmen from our People's Army and unravelling an array of policy, from health to defence, to show you what we are really about. Despite a very busy week of European politicking, addressing the Parliament as one of the seven European group leaders and underscoring my intention to lead the revolt, I made sure as well that I spoke to the UKIP MEPs about their real life experiences.
We want a team who believe in what they say. Who have lived the arguments they are going to sell. Who bring real experience as part of their depth and breadth of backgrounds into UK politics.
I am confident that in the run up to the General Elections, UKIP will no longer be seen as a single issue party, nor a one man band.
Forget how the media wish to paint us.
Instead look at the People's Army you have voted in as number one in the European elections. With a third of our team made of working women, without any form of all-female shortlists, and with the greatest number of working class representatives any political party has witnessed since the formation of Labour, and an array of campaigners from all creeds and backgrounds, we are the real voice of Britain. And what we represent is a movement in politics that is not only long overdue, but truly exciting?
A new term, a new set of targets and responsibilities, new subjects, new classmates and for many, an entirely new experience. The buzz of something exciting with a cautious sprinkle of apprehension fills the air with an energy of conversation, industry and the warming satisfaction of optimism.
So was the first week of the EU Parliament. With UKIP strengthening their representation to become the biggest party the UK has delivered to the European Union, there were certainly whispers in the corridors of power about our People's Army marching on Strasbourg
Yet far from being the middle class, elderly, male, obsessive and boring brigade of amateur enthusiasts the British media would like to portray, here was a team of true revolution. The voice of discontented Britain was potted in the zeal of the 24 new UKIP MEPs and taken unadulterated into the beating heart of the EU.
One is an Earl, the half- brother of Lady Diana, long divorced from the inherited Tory Blue tribalism of his peers. Two are salt-of-the earth Scousers, accents and grit not at all reduced by some political polishing machine. One, an industrious Muslim business man, whose broad Bradford accent and Paksitani colloquialisms reveal as much about British heritage as the next person. One, a larger than life openly gay Scot who was the first MEP to proudly walk into chamber in kilt and sporen (do not ask the cliché underwear question please!)
There's a tough talking, no-nonsense ex commando with a passion for patriotism and the lessons of the front line tattooed on his heart. The steelworker's daughter side by side with the miner's daughter. The umbrella maker of Gypsy extraction joins forces with the gentle Welsh Mormon. A group of people, in all their colour and variety, united by a single cause, as only Britain can do.
But the people's army has not been carefully engineered by an imaginative press office. What is the biggest rainbow alliance that has ever entered a Parliament as part of a UK political party is exactly how we describe it: A passionate, conjoined family from all walks of life, bound by the quest to restore democracy, and truly represent the people of Britain.
And that is what we are going to do.
Day one of the new term saw the grand opening of Parliament with an orchestra positioned in the bowels of the chamber to momentously perform Ode To Joy, the adopted EU anthem. As the misty eyed federalists stood to attention, affirmed by the proclamation of their ever powerful political project, the 24 UKIP MEPs also rose, and turned, backs against the flag, the anthem and the entire aspiration of the creation of a United States of Europe. No gesture could represent Britain more. No hollow words spoken in strategic oration by a Prime Minister desperate to garner votes. Our actions were at once symbolic, and one hundred per cent sincere.
The real fun however began on day two. The first debate saw the avian featured Van Rompuy and the bulldoggish Barroso preside over the new class as austere Headmaster and Deputy at school assembly. But with 24 Union Jacks fluttering on a spread of desks in one corner of the chamber, it was clear who would be the disruptive characters among the amassed. As the morning went on, the usually hyper-controlled and fastidiously regulated dreary procedures of the European Parliament became subject to combative interjections and lively debate, raining down constant interjections, questions and points of order that the otherwise bleakly beige and militaristic exercise of the European Parliament is rarely subjected to. The spirit of the Mother of Parliaments, the House of Commons, started shaking that first plenary session in Strasbourg to the core. Never before have they seen such assertiveness and challenge in numbers.
UKIP has not gone to Brussels and Strasbourg to be placid and inert. We made a promise to you to fight for what you believe in. And that is what we are going to do.
Over the coming weeks I will be announcing a front bench of spokesmen from our People's Army and unravelling an array of policy, from health to defence, to show you what we are really about. Despite a very busy week of European politicking, addressing the Parliament as one of the seven European group leaders and underscoring my intention to lead the revolt, I made sure as well that I spoke to the UKIP MEPs about their real life experiences.
We want a team who believe in what they say. Who have lived the arguments they are going to sell. Who bring real experience as part of their depth and breadth of backgrounds into UK politics.
I am confident that in the run up to the General Elections, UKIP will no longer be seen as a single issue party, nor a one man band.
Forget how the media wish to paint us.
Instead look at the People's Army you have voted in as number one in the European elections. With a third of our team made of working women, without any form of all-female shortlists, and with the greatest number of working class representatives any political party has witnessed since the formation of Labour, and an array of campaigners from all creeds and backgrounds, we are the real voice of Britain. And what we represent is a movement in politics that is not only long overdue, but truly exciting?
I can't wait to read the second chapter. Will Nigella Fartworth put one over on the school bully? Will she fall out with Roger, the ancient gardener who smells a bit of wee? Will there be jam tomorrow?
2013BRM said:
the referendum will come eventually because UKIP has already seeded doubt in the rest of Europe.
This is the crux of the issue. This is your Grand Delusion.It will Never Happen. Not in our lifetimes.
Do not forget that the rise in anti-EU voting across the EU is still a minority movement.
In the UK, UKIP will never win enough seats to actually change anything.
The net effect of this is that UKIP will never deliver a UK referendum. It simply is not possible in the context of our electoral system.
The chance to get a referendum in the next parliament through the Tories will be the ONLY window of opportunity for a referendum in the next 10-30 years. If we do not have a Tory majority and a referendum in the next parliament, the moment will have passed.
Your grand delusion is to somehow think otherwise; to somehow think that the plucky kippers can change things. Kippers have set the agenda and made it possible for the mainstream of politics to debate leaving the EU - in that it must be said, UKIP have done a great thing. But dogmatically ignoring the realities will get us nowhere.
If we don't have a referendum in the next parliament, we will probably never have one. People should remember this when they vote in the 2015 GE.
Re-negotiating eh?
"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
2013BRM said:
Zod said:
steveT350C said:
The only way I would vote Tory at the next GE, yes I fear labour getting in and screwing the economy, is if the in/out EU referendum was brought forward to the same day as the GE. Bit late now I guess, but that's why I will be voting UKIP, Tories have no idea, too little too late.
You fear Labour, but will vote in a way that increases the risk of a Labour government. Well that makes perfect sense!Guam said:
And we are no longer "Europeans" we are allowed to be Brits once more 
b
ks. If Mrs Merkel decides - for whatever reason - that it may be politically useful to introduce measures to limit migration, then it'll happen. Junckers was either talking out of his hat or he has been wilfully misrepresented. More scare tactics.
Britain is part of Europe, by the way. Or does UKIP propose dragging us out into the middle of the Atlantic?
Guam said:
mrpurple said:
Re-negotiating eh?
"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
And we are no longer "Europeans" we are allowed to be Brits once more "Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
Zod said:
2013BRM said:
Zod said:
steveT350C said:
The only way I would vote Tory at the next GE, yes I fear labour getting in and screwing the economy, is if the in/out EU referendum was brought forward to the same day as the GE. Bit late now I guess, but that's why I will be voting UKIP, Tories have no idea, too little too late.
You fear Labour, but will vote in a way that increases the risk of a Labour government. Well that makes perfect sense!The average Kipper will either be dead or dribbling somewhere not knowing what their name is ( along with the rest of us ) before there is a referendum.
Having a referendum in the next parliament is probably the only opportunity in a generation. And it depends on a Tory win. If Labour win, an entire generation will pass and plenty of young voters would have been indoctrinated by a decade of Labour into being pro-EU. Most of UKIP will be dead by then or at least retired from any effective role.
mrpurple said:
Re-negotiating eh?
"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
As a matter of interest, is that the issue that most people would see top of the list for re-negotiation?"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
Wouldn't be mine, but I wondered what the general view is
Mr Snap said:
Esseesse said:
If we remain in the EU as we are at the moment, or if the Conservative referendum happens and we vote to stay in then I think there's a very good chance that we'll get the Euro eventually.
What do you mean "eventually"? Twenty years? Fifty years? Two hundred years?"Eventually" means nothing in a historical context. Two hundred years ago, in 1814, if you had said that you were worried that "eventually" we might be in a treaty with the French, everyone would have said you were barking mad. But look what happened. Within 60 years we were working in cahoots with the French and within 100 years we had the 'Entente Cordiale'.
You have no idea what conditions may prevail at some (unspecified) date in the future. To say you're convinced we'll "get the Euro eventually" is errant nonsense because you can't predict future eventualities. Maybe, one day, there will be conditions (I haven't a clue what they'll be) that will make us want to join. Maybe, one day, we won't want to join. Maybe, one day, we'll all be using the Renminbi and talking Mandarin and going to work in flying cars! Nobody has a clue what the distant future holds.
As for the next decade or so, no UK government in their right mind would dream of doing such a thing. As I said before, they'd be out on their ear within days if they tried it. Nobody is that stupid, not even The LibDems.
Your argument, quite frankly, is full of holes. In fact there are so many holes, there isn't even an argument there. What remains is a transparent attempt to provoke the hard of thinking into an unnecessary state of fear. Shame on you.
If you read what I wrote again you'll see that I gave an opinion, not an argument. This is nothing to do with fear, and I have no shame in giving an opinion that I feel is reasonably but not absolutely (who is?) informed. Of course if you have evidence as to why I should change my opinion, I have no shame in changing it, this is part of learning. Arguing that it's a poor opinion because we can't predict the future and then saying that no government (in the future) would do such a thing is pretty weak and contradictory of itself.
If you want the reason as to why I think there's a good chance (not a certainty)... well Tony wanted us in the Euro for a start. Mr Heseltine thinks we will ultimately join the Euro http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15810970. There are some other reasons related to details of the treaties we have signed, I'll go and have a dig about so I'm not just working from memory now...
TuscanOwner said:
mrpurple said:
Re-negotiating eh?
"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
As a matter of interest, is that the issue that most people would see top of the list for re-negotiation?"Mr Juncker made it absolutely clear that on the question of the free movement of peoples across the European Union, there was no question of any negotiation of that position........migration within the EU was a ‘marginal issue'"
http://www.ukip.org/nigel_farage_statement_on_efdd...
Wouldn't be mine, but I wondered what the general view is
steveT350C said:
Saying they want Brexit is a big step beyond saying they will give us a referendum. The only way to force the issue is is to vote UKIP.
I agree lets all vote for UKIP. The fact that UKIP has been in existence for 20 years and still does not have any idea how it will carry out its single most important policy clearly shows its worth considering allowing it to run this country.In 2010 the coalition government said that they would not adopt the Euro in this parliament. http://www.eu-27watch.org/?q=node/684
The fact that they made this statement suggests that joining the Euro is not out of the question outside of this parliament.
The fact that they made this statement suggests that joining the Euro is not out of the question outside of this parliament.
After 2020, all EU members will have to adopt the euro
Andrew Lilico said:
Recent events have made the British political commentariat more aware than before of just how committed European political leaders are to delivering political union in a Single European State.
It should now be clear that this is not the unlikely ambition of a few starry-eyed visionaries. It is the stated official goal of the Italian Prime Minister, the French President, the German Chancellor, the current and next Presidents of the European Commission, the President of the European Council, and just about every significant mainstream political figure in the Eurozone...
... When the euro was first agreed, the UK and Denmark “opted out”. But at that stage that only meant they were not joining at the start. There was never intended to be any long-term form of EU membership that did not include euro membership. The UK did not say “never” to begin with, and all new EU members since the euro began in 1999 have had to commit to joining. Indeed, by 2020, all but five member states of the EU are due to be euro members and Poland is likely to join by then as well, leaving just the UK, Denmark, Sweden and Bulgaria outside.
That means that at some point, perhaps shortly after 2020, with the Eurozone constituted as a confederate Single European State and wanting to use the institution of the EU as its institutions — the European Parliament as its confederation-level Parliament, the Commission as its civil service and so on — the residual nugatory non-Eurozone EU will have to be wound up.
Andrew Lilico (Chairman of Europe Economics)
It should now be clear that this is not the unlikely ambition of a few starry-eyed visionaries. It is the stated official goal of the Italian Prime Minister, the French President, the German Chancellor, the current and next Presidents of the European Commission, the President of the European Council, and just about every significant mainstream political figure in the Eurozone...
... When the euro was first agreed, the UK and Denmark “opted out”. But at that stage that only meant they were not joining at the start. There was never intended to be any long-term form of EU membership that did not include euro membership. The UK did not say “never” to begin with, and all new EU members since the euro began in 1999 have had to commit to joining. Indeed, by 2020, all but five member states of the EU are due to be euro members and Poland is likely to join by then as well, leaving just the UK, Denmark, Sweden and Bulgaria outside.
That means that at some point, perhaps shortly after 2020, with the Eurozone constituted as a confederate Single European State and wanting to use the institution of the EU as its institutions — the European Parliament as its confederation-level Parliament, the Commission as its civil service and so on — the residual nugatory non-Eurozone EU will have to be wound up.
Andrew Lilico (Chairman of Europe Economics)
Edited by Esseesse on Thursday 10th July 11:56
Esseesse said:
After 2020, all EU members will have to adopt the euro
[quote=Andrew Lilico (Chairman of Europe Economics)]Recent events have made the British political commentariat more aware than before of just how committed European political leaders are to delivering political union in a Single European State.
It should now be clear that this is not the unlikely ambition of a few starry-eyed visionaries. It is the stated official goal of the Italian Prime Minister, the French President, the German Chancellor, the current and next Presidents of the European Commission, the President of the European Council, and just about every significant mainstream political figure in the Eurozone...
... When the euro was first agreed, the UK and Denmark “opted out”. But at that stage that only meant they were not joining at the start. There was never intended to be any long-term form of EU membership that did not include euro membership. The UK did not say “never” to begin with, and all new EU members since the euro began in 1999 have had to commit to joining. Indeed, by 2020, all but five member states of the EU are due to be euro members and Poland is likely to join by then as well, leaving just the UK, Denmark, Sweden and Bulgaria outside.
That means that at some point, perhaps shortly after 2020, with the Eurozone constituted as a confederate Single European State and wanting to use the institution of the EU as its institutions — the European Parliament as its confederation-level Parliament, the Commission as its civil service and so on — the residual nugatory non-Eurozone EU will have to be wound up.
[quote=Andrew Lilico (Chairman of Europe Economics)]Recent events have made the British political commentariat more aware than before of just how committed European political leaders are to delivering political union in a Single European State.
It should now be clear that this is not the unlikely ambition of a few starry-eyed visionaries. It is the stated official goal of the Italian Prime Minister, the French President, the German Chancellor, the current and next Presidents of the European Commission, the President of the European Council, and just about every significant mainstream political figure in the Eurozone...
... When the euro was first agreed, the UK and Denmark “opted out”. But at that stage that only meant they were not joining at the start. There was never intended to be any long-term form of EU membership that did not include euro membership. The UK did not say “never” to begin with, and all new EU members since the euro began in 1999 have had to commit to joining. Indeed, by 2020, all but five member states of the EU are due to be euro members and Poland is likely to join by then as well, leaving just the UK, Denmark, Sweden and Bulgaria outside.
That means that at some point, perhaps shortly after 2020, with the Eurozone constituted as a confederate Single European State and wanting to use the institution of the EU as its institutions — the European Parliament as its confederation-level Parliament, the Commission as its civil service and so on — the residual nugatory non-Eurozone EU will have to be wound up.
Horrible isn't it.
Another 5-10 years of Labour back in power and the electorate will have been softened up to vote Yes to join the Euro. A whole generation of young voters will be indoctrinated by Red Ed to be pro-EU. Most Kippers will be dead by then.
This will happen - unless we get a referendum in the next parliament. It is the ONLY likely chance to get one in our lifetimes.
So vote Tory.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/02/02/almunia-b...
Article said:
There is a high chance Britain will join the euro in the future, EU Economic and Monetary Policy Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Monday.
Esseesse said:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/02/02/almunia-b...
He would say that, wouldn't he.Article said:
There is a high chance Britain will join the euro in the future, EU Economic and Monetary Policy Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Monday.
Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.
Zod said:
He would say that, wouldn't he.
Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.
THIS !! Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.
The EU love UKIP because they know that they will gift the UK GE to Labour. This is why they are so tolerated and indulged.
Nigel is having a ball and massaging his ego no doubt with his grandstanding, but the EU are just biding their time because they know that UKIP will scupper a Tory majority and Labour will form the next Gov. There will then be a 10-15 year program of "education" and the UK population will vote to join the Euro.
Vote Tory: get a referendum. It is probably the only way to stop it.
Zod said:
Esseesse said:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/02/02/almunia-b...
He would say that, wouldn't he.Article said:
There is a high chance Britain will join the euro in the future, EU Economic and Monetary Policy Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Monday.
Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.
mrpurple said:
Zod said:
Esseesse said:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/02/02/almunia-b...
He would say that, wouldn't he.Article said:
There is a high chance Britain will join the euro in the future, EU Economic and Monetary Policy Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Monday.
Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.
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