UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

[toppstuff]

mrpurple said:

So instead of Cameron going on manoeuvres in a pathetic attempt to convince us that he is serious about renegotiation yet still leaving plenty of room for later compromise, perhaps he should tell us what he intends to renegotiate, what results he expects to get, where are his lines in the sand etc etc.......the truth is he is as pro the EU federalist state as Labour are but not quite as honest about his real intentions.

So what? Who cares?

Farage is never going to have power over anything, not unless we have a revolution and overhaul the entire electoral system. This will also have to happen inside the next 10 years or so because Farage will be too old otherwise. Still, there is always Neil Hamilton. He can step in..

Let go of the CMD obsession. Focus on a referendum. Unless , of course, complaining about the EU is actually a hobby and you'd rather not give it up by voting the only way that may actually change anything.

[Mr Snap]

Esseesse said:

Are you capable of giving your opinion without attacking me? I haven't attacked you.

If you read what I wrote again you'll see that I gave an opinion, not an argument. This is nothing to do with fear, and I have no shame in giving an opinion that I feel is reasonably but not absolutely (who is?) informed. Of course if you have evidence as to why I should change my opinion, I have no shame in changing it, this is part of learning. Arguing that it's a poor opinion because we can't predict the future and then saying that no government (in the future) would do such a thing is pretty weak and contradictory of itself.

If you want the reason as to why I think there's a good chance (not a certainty)... well Tony wanted us in the Euro for a start. Mr Heseltine thinks we will ultimately join the Euro http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15810970. There are some other reasons related to details of the treaties we have signed, I'll go and have a dig about so I'm not just working from memory now...

Expressing an opinion is fine, but you said "a very good chance" based on two eminently probable contingencies (i.e. staying in the EU or having a Conservative referendum). Seeing as one of the two contingencies is pretty much a racing certainty, then I assumed you meant we were therefore certain to join the Euro.

I don't think I was contradictory. I tried to be clear in my opinion that joining the Euro within a decade or so would be most unlikely and that anything beyond that is pointless crystal ball gazing. Mr Heseltine could be right but, like I tried to explain, it could only happen in the uncharted future when all bets are off (and, as far as I can see, no bookmaker is even offering odds on us joining the Euro, it's that far-out). For all I know, we could be hit by a Tsunami wiping out the population and leaving the British Isles to be populated by Germans, who knows?

What 'Tony wanted' is ancient history (and that places Michael Heseltine's beliefs somewhere in the Jurassic Period). Things have moved on. Whatever the treaties say, in the foreseeable future we aren't going to join the Euro unless there's an absolute sea change in the UK's politico/economic situation, end of. No UK politician in their right mind would dare even think it. The City of London would declare UDI, there would be riots on the streets and I - as a proponent of the EU - would be taking part in them.

In short, your opinion simply doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

[mrpurple]

Zod said:

mrpurple said:

Zod said:

Esseesse said:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/02/02/almunia-b...

Article said:

There is a high chance Britain will join the euro in the future, EU Economic and Monetary Policy Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Monday.

He would say that, wouldn't he.


Anyway, make no mistake, the EU powers are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a Labour government that will roll over for them. Voting UKIP risks giving them what they want.

So instead of Cameron going on manoeuvres in a pathetic attempt to convince us that he is serious about renegotiation yet still leaving plenty of room for later compromise, perhaps he should tell us what he intends to renegotiate, what results he expects to get, where are his lines in the sand etc etc.......the truth is he is as pro the EU federalist state as Labour are but not quite as honest about his real intentions.

Great negotiating tactic there: tell the other side your bottom line before you start!

So treat us like mushrooms, keep us in the dark, feed us bullst and leave himself plenty of wriggleroom when his "negotiations" all go titsup?

cards on the table, say what you want, be prepared to leave if you don't get it........... but the truth is...he want's to stay in!!!

That's your lot for a week or so...........off to catch a plane to sunny Bulgaria.....look forward to the abuse when I get back

[FiF]

mrpurple said:

Perhaps CMD should publish a list of his intended re-negotiation issues and then we could all rank them in order of importance? Just a thought

It's back to the question that isn't being answered.

Those who glibly say EU needs reform and we should negotiate.

What are the issues which need reform?
Which of those issues, if any, are a line in the sand and which are merely desirable but not an absolute requirement.
If, for any or all of these lines in the sand, a suitable compromise acceptable to UK cannot be negotiated, then what?

Or as usual will it be

[mrpurple]

toppstuff said:

mrpurple said:

So instead of Cameron going on manoeuvres in a pathetic attempt to convince us that he is serious about renegotiation yet still leaving plenty of room for later compromise, perhaps he should tell us what he intends to renegotiate, what results he expects to get, where are his lines in the sand etc etc.......the truth is he is as pro the EU federalist state as Labour are but not quite as honest about his real intentions.

So what? Who cares?

Farage is never going to have power over anything, not unless we have a revolution and overhaul the entire electoral system. This will also have to happen inside the next 10 years or so because Farage will be too old otherwise. Still, there is always Neil Hamilton. He can step in..

Let go of the CMD obsession. Focus on a referendum. Unless , of course, complaining about the EU is actually a hobby and you'd rather not give it up by voting the only way that may actually change anything.

I've been complaining about the EU for over 20 years so another 10 won't make much difference to me personally....I may well be dead by then as other have stated.


PS I totally agree with everything said about NH though so good job he is only a backroom boy.

[toppstuff]

mrpurple said:

I've been complaining about the EU for over 20 years so another 10 won't make much difference to me personally....I may well be dead by then as other have stated.


PS I totally agree with everything said about NH though so good job he is only a backroom boy.

1. Your kids will thank you when we join the Euro after you've gone. The UK will have stopped being the place you love. And you would have voted for the wrong party who actually couldn't do a thing to stop it.

2. Neil Hamilton is Deputy Chairman. That is a senior position. He is nothing but a toxic source of ridicule and in the eyes of many renders UKIP unelectable . UKIP will win nothing of note in the GE and have no impact.

Have a nice break

[steveT350C]

Mrr T said:

steveT350C said:

Saying they want Brexit is a big step beyond saying they will give us a referendum. The only way to force the issue is is to vote UKIP.

I agree lets all vote for UKIP. The fact that UKIP has been in existence for 20 years and still does not have any idea how it will carry out its single most important policy clearly shows its worth considering allowing it to run this country.

Just to clarify, are you saying that UKIP do not have any idea on how the UK would leave the EU?

[toppstuff]

steveT350C said:

Mrr T said:

steveT350C said:

Saying they want Brexit is a big step beyond saying they will give us a referendum. The only way to force the issue is is to vote UKIP.

I agree lets all vote for UKIP. The fact that UKIP has been in existence for 20 years and still does not have any idea how it will carry out its single most important policy clearly shows its worth considering allowing it to run this country.

Just to clarify, are you saying that UKIP do not have any idea on how the UK would leave the EU?

Given that UKIP cannot actually do anything practical to enable the UK to leave the EU ( other than lobby and raise the subject) , UKIP is irrelevant to actually overseeing the leaving process. Only a Tory or Labour led Government will ever find itself in a position to take the country out , simply because UKIP will never hold any power.

I may have the manual to fly a Vulcan bomber but I am never going to sit in the pilots seat. Same for UKIP and the UK leaving the EU.

[Mr Snap]

FiF said:

mrpurple said:

Perhaps CMD should publish a list of his intended re-negotiation issues and then we could all rank them in order of importance? Just a thought

It's back to the question that isn't being answered.

Those who glibly say EU needs reform and we should negotiate.

What are the issues which need reform?
Which of those issues, if any, are a line in the sand and which are merely desirable but not an absolute requirement.
If, for any or all of these lines in the sand, a suitable compromise acceptable to UK cannot be negotiated, then what?

Or as usual will it be

Nobody knows because UKIP has hijacked the debate. Nobody dare discuss anything about any of the things you mention because UKIP will jump on it.

Being the nay sayer in a discussion is easy because you never have to agree with anything, whatever propositions are put before UKIP, they'll represent it as a European plot. UKIP's nihilistic approach stifles rational argument and gets us nowhere. It only benefits Nigel and his cronies, they win a free a season ticket for the EU gravy train.

[Esseesse]

toppstuff said:

steveT350C said:

Mrr T said:

steveT350C said:

Saying they want Brexit is a big step beyond saying they will give us a referendum. The only way to force the issue is is to vote UKIP.

I agree lets all vote for UKIP. The fact that UKIP has been in existence for 20 years and still does not have any idea how it will carry out its single most important policy clearly shows its worth considering allowing it to run this country.

Just to clarify, are you saying that UKIP do not have any idea on how the UK would leave the EU?

Given that UKIP cannot actually do anything practical to enable the UK to leave the EU ( other than lobby and raise the subject) , UKIP is irrelevant to actually overseeing the leaving process. Only a Tory or Labour led Government will ever find itself in a position to take the country out , simply because UKIP will never hold any power.

I may have the manual to fly a Vulcan bomber but I am never going to sit in the pilots seat. Same for UKIP and the UK leaving the EU.

Best way to force the issue is for UKIP to gain support and go after Labour voters. Ed has already come under pressure to offer a referendum.

[Mrr T]

steveT350C said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that UKIP do not have any idea on how the UK would leave the EU?

Yes. I am saying UKIP has no idea how the UK would leave the EU and still continue to function.

[toppstuff]

Esseesse said:

Best way to force the issue is for UKIP to gain support and go after Labour voters. Ed has already come under pressure to offer a referendum.

Never going to happen. Labour vote is less susceptible to UKIP swing than the Con vote is. UKIP will pick up a few disenchanted white working class but not enough to make a difference.

Red Ed is definitely pro-Euro and will see his winning as a mandate to get closer to Europe. All the young voters coming through won't remember the Euro crisis and will vote Labour again.

You are delusional if you think UKIP is going to hurt Labour in any meaningful way. UKIP will only nibble at them.

Only chance is a Tory majority and then a proper fight over a real life referendum. If this does not happen in the next parliament, it never will. The next generation of voters don't care about it the way you and I do.

[Mr Snap]

Mrr T said:

Yes. I am saying UKIP has no idea how the UK would leave the EU and still continue to function.

I'd have stopped at not knowing how.


Reminds me of the old surgeon joke - "The operation was a great success Mrs Smith. Unfortunately, your husband failed to survive it...".

[2013BRM]

Zod said:

2013BRM said:

Zod said:

steveT350C said:

The only way I would vote Tory at the next GE, yes I fear labour getting in and screwing the economy, is if the in/out EU referendum was brought forward to the same day as the GE. Bit late now I guess, but that's why I will be voting UKIP, Tories have no idea, too little too late.

You fear Labour, but will vote in a way that increases the risk of a Labour government. Well that makes perfect sense!

Good grief, can't you see you 'tactical voters' are being led by the nose? you are utterly in the thrall of the system and so long as you carry on will continue to get more of the same. Try looking at the long game eh?

I'm more interested in things that will happen in this half of the century.

mores the pity

[Mr Snap]

toppstuff said:

The next generation of voters don't care about it the way you and I do.

Now that is a very good point.

Given that this is probably true, do you feel it's right to vote against their wishes? Right or wrong, I think it's incumbent on the old to show at least some respect for this dynamic.

How many UKIP supporters actually listen to and take on board their grandchildren's aspirations? (Rather than pontificating about how it's all going to hell in a handcart and how I'm saving you from a fate worse than death).

[Zod]

2013BRM said:

mores the pity

Eh?

[dandarez]

Mr Snap said:

toppstuff said:

The next generation of voters don't care about it the way you and I do.

Now that is a very good point.

Given that this is probably true, do you feel it's right to vote against their wishes? Right or wrong, I think it's incumbent on the old to show at least some respect for this dynamic.

How many UKIP supporters actually listen to and take on board their grandchildren's aspirations? (Rather than pontificating about how it's all going to hell in a handcart and how I'm saving you from a fate worse than death).

Lots of them I should think.

My granddaughter aspired to the latest 'scooter', a Huffy, so I immediately bought her one.
She aspired to go to a top achieving local primary school but lived outside the catchment. I saw to it and helped her parents move and in September she starts at the school in question. Yeah, she's not 5 yet.

When she gets older if she aspires for the federalist European state hell hole, I'll give her my advice. No more, no less.

But probably won't have to.
We'll either be out by then and good bloody riddance, or so far into the EU State mire it'll be too late.

[Scuffers]

Mrr T said:

steveT350C said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that UKIP do not have any idea on how the UK would leave the EU?

Yes. I am saying UKIP has no idea how the UK would leave the EU and still continue to function.

Based on exactly what?

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. I am saying UKIP has no idea how the UK would leave the EU and still continue to function.

I'd have stopped at not knowing how.


Reminds me of the old surgeon joke - "The operation was a great success Mrs Smith. Unfortunately, your husband failed to survive it...".

I used the words specifically because most of the kipper I have dealt with just insist all you need to do to leave the EU is renounce the various treaties. Which is of cause legally correct. However, the consequences are unthinkable.

[WinstonWolf]

Mrr T said:

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. I am saying UKIP has no idea how the UK would leave the EU and still continue to function.

I'd have stopped at not knowing how.


Reminds me of the old surgeon joke - "The operation was a great success Mrs Smith. Unfortunately, your husband failed to survive it...".

I used the words specifically because most of the kipper I have dealt with just insist all you need to do to leave the EU is renounce the various treaties. Which is of cause legally correct. However, the consequences are unthinkable.

If you can't think of any consequences then you might as well vote to leave

You do know we pretty much ruled the planet on our own long before the EU was a mere pipe-dream.