How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 12)
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
It really really isn’t. My grandparents live 400 yards from it and you’d never know it was there. On a motorway sure you get told, but you don’t in many other places.
Absolutely my satnav took me a different way across the border last week where I was unfamiliar with the area I literally spent about 10 miles wondering which side I was on .. I knew I was pretty much on it .. there wasn’t even the usual speed limits sign or different road markings, it was only when I saw a black PSNI Skoda that I thought “ I must have crossed over “ but I’m still unsure where
I went back across my usual route where there are signs as you cross
TTwiggy said:
When there's an election we get this thing called an 'opposition'. It's there to ensure we don't get a tyranny of the majority. I'm sure you know this, etc, etc...
Don't forget the courts, either. I'm sure there are many people really looking forward to helping crowdfund the inevitable legal challenges that will face the next administration they didn't vote for, or the next democratic decision they don't much care for.
The trouble with this approach is that it's liable to be catching.
Was interesting on five live earlier. That snake Mandelson was on, but the interviewer asked why there was a delegation of hardcore pro remainers on a train to the EU HQ this morning, who would they be speaking to and, more importantly, why?
Who gives them any authority to be there and speaking against the government while the latter are trying to secure a deal?
Who gives them any authority to be there and speaking against the government while the latter are trying to secure a deal?
TTwiggy said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Strange how some seem to think that the first and only referendum on whether or not the UK should be in the EU (where the leave side won a with 1.4 million majority in the largest turn out in UK voting history) was a `close run thing'.
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?Significant ?
TTwiggy said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Strange how some seem to think that the first and only referendum on whether or not the UK should be in the EU (where the leave side won a with 1.4 million majority in the largest turn out in UK voting history) was a `close run thing'.
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?Pan Pan Pan said:
Yet when a few hundred remain politicians in the HoC (many of whom voted contrary to the wishes of the constituents, who put them onto the HoC in the first place) try to overturn the votes of 17.4 million UK citizens, that is apparently OK, because and I quote, in the UK we have what they describe as a `representative democracy'
That's what we have. You can't really argue otherwise.Pan Pan Pan said:
Yet when that same `representative democracy' decided it had to give the people of the UK a vote on the matter in 2016, the people did not give the result the remainers wanted, so they have been doing their best to overturn, water down, or otherwise stop the wishes of the majority voter in the UK being enacted.
The vote was little more than an opinion poll. Going back to the 52 v 48 percent result, there had to be some sort of compromise. I don't expect you to agree of course.Question 2. If we have a representative democracy, then it was the exact same `representative democracy' which decided it had to give the people of the UK a vote on its membership of the EU. Or are some `representative democracies' more valid than some other `representative democracies' If so, who get to decide which representative democracy is the more important?
Question:3 The vote which kept the people of the UK in the EEC after it was taken into it without the consent of the people of the UK was therefore ALSO no more than an opinion poll.
However It seems you like `opinion polls' which give the sort of result `you' want, but appear to be saying that opinion polls which don't give the result you want should be ignored.
On what criteria do you base your highly selective view on how the validity of `opinion polls' are supposed to work?
In any vote system, the side which wins the vote, gets to implement its policies, Or are you suggesting that if labour get in at the next GE, they should implement tory policies, because the tories were only a few percentage points behind labour, in the vote?.
Is that how you think voting systems should work? This bleating protesting, and trying to immediately overturn the result of a democratic vote seems to be a new thing where those who don't have the decency to respect a democratic vote , feel they should be able to ignore, or overturn it because it was not they one `they' wanted.
They probably come from new age schoolsm where no one can lose on school sports day, because the poor little darlings are told (indoctrinated) that even if they come in stone cold last they have still won,. so as not hurt their ickle, little feelings, made worse by the fact that the REAL world, does not, never has, and never will work like that.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 16th October 13:00
TTwiggy said:
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?
A win.According to the rules of the game.
Which were devised by the Remain campaign, who didn't understand the UK outside of Islington quite as well as they thought they did.
This line of conversation is powered entirely by frustration. Nobody describes a rugby score of 52:48 as too close to call, or effectively a draw, or clearly requiring a rematch. It's a result.
Pan Pan Pan said:
TTwiggy said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Strange how some seem to think that the first and only referendum on whether or not the UK should be in the EU (where the leave side won a with 1.4 million majority in the largest turn out in UK voting history) was a `close run thing'.
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?Pan Pan Pan said:
Yet when a few hundred remain politicians in the HoC (many of whom voted contrary to the wishes of the constituents, who put them onto the HoC in the first place) try to overturn the votes of 17.4 million UK citizens, that is apparently OK, because and I quote, in the UK we have what they describe as a `representative democracy'
That's what we have. You can't really argue otherwise.Pan Pan Pan said:
Yet when that same `representative democracy' decided it had to give the people of the UK a vote on the matter in 2016, the people did not give the result the remainers wanted, so they have been doing their best to overturn, water down, or otherwise stop the wishes of the majority voter in the UK being enacted.
The vote was little more than an opinion poll. Going back to the 52 v 48 percent result, there had to be some sort of compromise. I don't expect you to agree of course.Question 2. If we have a representative democracy, then it was the exact same `representative democracy' which decided it had to give the people of the UK a vote on its membership of the EU. Or are some `representative democracies' more valid than some other `representative democracies' If so, who get to decide which representative democracy is the more important?
Question:3 The vote which kept the people of the UK in the EEC after it was taken into it without the consent of the people of the UK was therefore ALSO no more than an opinion poll.
However It seems you like `opinion polls' which give the sort of result `you' want, but appear to be saying that opinion polls which don't give the result you want should be ignored.
On what criteria do you base your highly selective view on how the validity of `opinion polls' are supposed to work?
In any vote system, the side which wins the vote, gets to implement its policies, Or are you suggesting that if labour get in at the next GE, they should implement tory policies, because the tories were only a few percentage points behind labour, in the vote?.
Is that how you think voting systems should work? This bleating protesting, and trying to immediately overturn the result of a democratic vote seems to be a new thing where those who don't have the decency to respect a democratic, feel they should be able to ignore, or overturn it because it was not they one `they' wanted.
They probably come from new age schools where no one can lose, on school sports day, because the poor little darlings are told (indoctrinated) that even if they come in stone cold last they have still won,. so as not hurt their ickle, little feelings, made worse by the fact that the REAL world, does not, never has, and never will work like that.
Mothersruin said:
Was interesting on five live earlier. That snake Mandelson was on, but the interviewer asked why there was a delegation of hardcore pro remainers on a train to the EU HQ this morning, who would they be speaking to and, more importantly, why?
Who gives them any authority to be there and speaking against the government while the latter are trying to secure a deal?
An interview with a labour MP last week indicating already happening from their side. He was a bit coy when the interviews picked up on it. But really, don't see why they cannot speak to them.Who gives them any authority to be there and speaking against the government while the latter are trying to secure a deal?
SpeckledJim said:
TTwiggy said:
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?
A win.According to the rules of the game.
Which were devised by the Remain campaign, who didn't understand the UK outside of Islington quite as well as they thought they did.
This line of conversation is powered entirely by frustration. Nobody describes a rugby score of 52:48 as too close to call, or effectively a draw, or clearly requiring a rematch. It's a result.
Except don't forget politicians' jobs are on the line.
If they think the 48% are more politically active in future general elections than the 52%, then they might look to favour the 48%.
Doesn't matter whether it's right or not. Or whether it's democratic. It's politics.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1184415037768...
comedy stuff, now they don't want to give parliment a voice, almost as if all these complaints were just to ensure they got their own way, nothing to do with a just or fair process.
comedy stuff, now they don't want to give parliment a voice, almost as if all these complaints were just to ensure they got their own way, nothing to do with a just or fair process.
MDMetal said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1184415037768...
comedy stuff, now they don't want to give parliment a voice, almost as if all these complaints were just to ensure they got their own way, nothing to do with a just or fair process.
Yeah this is just fcomedy stuff, now they don't want to give parliment a voice, almost as if all these complaints were just to ensure they got their own way, nothing to do with a just or fair process.
king stupid. Robertj21a said:
p1stonhead said:
And boris’ deal apparently ‘splits up the UK’ because NI will be treated differently from us.
I wonder how many people think that's inevitable anyway at some point in the future ?Using your logic:
"Its inevitable he was going to be dead at some point in the future........Your Honour".
Always the basest arguments. You replied to me yesterday with something that wouldn't have been out of place in a schoolyard.
The decent Brexiteers are fleeing the ship its only the low hanging fruit left.
oyster said:
SpeckledJim said:
TTwiggy said:
How else would you (or anyone) generally describe a 52 v 48 percentile?
A win.According to the rules of the game.
Which were devised by the Remain campaign, who didn't understand the UK outside of Islington quite as well as they thought they did.
This line of conversation is powered entirely by frustration. Nobody describes a rugby score of 52:48 as too close to call, or effectively a draw, or clearly requiring a rematch. It's a result.
Except don't forget politicians' jobs are on the line.
If they think the 48% are more politically active in future general elections than the 52%, then they might look to favour the 48%.
Doesn't matter whether it's right or not. Or whether it's democratic. It's politics.
We'll get to see in the next few months what the politicians who don't get their heads around that idea end-up doing for their next jobs.
Sounds a good deal if this remainer hates it 
Margot James was a Conservative MP until she lost the party whip for voting to block a no-deal Brexit.
She says she will give the proposals "a very favourable look", but adds that "everything I hear indicates it is a worse deal than the one proposed by the former PM [Theresa May]."
"I think it holds serious potential repercussions for the UK.
"If Northern Ireland is left in the EU single market and customs union, that is very good for the Northern Ireland economy but not as good for the rest of the UK.
"The other huge danger is the Scots will want the same treatment - and why shouldn't they?
"The call for an independence referendum will be unstoppable."
Margot James was a Conservative MP until she lost the party whip for voting to block a no-deal Brexit.
She says she will give the proposals "a very favourable look", but adds that "everything I hear indicates it is a worse deal than the one proposed by the former PM [Theresa May]."
"I think it holds serious potential repercussions for the UK.
"If Northern Ireland is left in the EU single market and customs union, that is very good for the Northern Ireland economy but not as good for the rest of the UK.
"The other huge danger is the Scots will want the same treatment - and why shouldn't they?
"The call for an independence referendum will be unstoppable."
SpeckledJim said:
Tory rebel Antoinette Sandbach has lost a VONC among her constituency association.
That'll put the wind up more than a few of our 'representatives'.
I’m not sure she will miss it to be honest. Look at what she’s having to put up with from some people. That'll put the wind up more than a few of our 'representatives'.
https://twitter.com/sandbach/status/11843718289801...
p1stonhead said:
SpeckledJim said:
Tory rebel Antoinette Sandbach has lost a VONC among her constituency association.
That'll put the wind up more than a few of our 'representatives'.
I’m not sure she will miss it to be honest. Look at what she’s having to put up with from some people. That'll put the wind up more than a few of our 'representatives'.
https://twitter.com/sandbach/status/11843718289801...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff