Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9

[biggbn]

Pastor Of Muppets said:

biggbn said:

Are people really saying those in favour of independence should just swallow it and forget about it?

For a generation...yes.

Meanwhile those in favour of independence relentlessly disregard the majority who voted No, It's the indy
obsessives that want us all to forget something.... 2014.

Time to put a stop to divisive political agenda.

But it won't go away, will it? Surely there must be a beer, dare i say more grown up way to deal with it than this incessant name calling and inanity hurling? And yes, I am addressing both sides of the argument because they are equally guilty of this behaviour.

[Evercross]

biggbn said:

But it won't go away, will it? Surely there must be a better, dare i say more grown up way to deal with it.

There is - it is called accepting democracy. Some of the words Sturgeon has uttered this week demonstrate a breathtaking lack of self-awareness regarding it.

[biggbn]

Evercross said:

biggbn said:

I suspect the SNP would be happy with an ever more devolved system still reliant on a UK Inc. Safety net. That is a convenient sell out and is letting down those of us who would like independence. They are a joke party who simply want to play at running a country and would run a mile if they did not have the hand that they regularly bite to feed them when things get tough. Sturgeon and Co no more want independence than Boris and co, in fact, i suspect Boris and Co secretly favour it more to get rid of the incessantly yapping pantomime North of the border.

I disagree. The SNP will 'never be happy' because the minute they settle for something less than that which is outwith their grasp then their clamouring support base will desert them, thinking 'what's the point'. Appeasement has been tried and has failed miserably, and when the SNP have been granted more devolution they have gone out of their way to avoid using it lest they be held responsible for it.

See welfare reforms as an example - the SNP have now deferred twice (the second time indefinitely) on taking over welfare powers they demanded as part of the Scotland Act 2016.

Edited by Evercross on Sunday 8th November 10:32

EV, the SNP do not want independence believe me. They are $hitting themselves at the prospect of having to sit at the adults table after decades of sitting at the kids table and behaving how they want whilst still getting their cake and cream.

[biggbn]

Haven't popped in here for a while, thanks for the chat guys, informative and provocative as ever, have a great Sunday, gbn

[Evercross]

biggbn said:

EV, the SNP do not want independence believe me. They are $hitting themselves at the prospect of having to sit at the adults table after decades of sitting at the kids table and behaving how they want whilst still getting their cake and cream.

I agree - it is why I put 'never be happy' in quotes. It is about the continued agitation while keeping the carrot dangling in front of their support base.

But that leads to the obvious question - if the party that purports to want it really doesn't want it, is it a good idea at all?

[andy_s]

biggbn said:

But it won't go away, will it? Surely there must be a beer, dare i say more grown up way to deal with it than this incessant name calling and inanity hurling? And yes, I am addressing both sides of the argument because they are equally guilty of this behaviour.

Agree with pretty much everything you've said here and above, even though I'm inclined the other way on the issue.

Like pretty much everything in politics, it's mostly illusions to craft the populace so as to perpetuate the incompetent.

[/cynic]

[biggbn]

andy_s said:

biggbn said:

But it won't go away, will it? Surely there must be a beer, dare i say more grown up way to deal with it than this incessant name calling and inanity hurling? And yes, I am addressing both sides of the argument because they are equally guilty of this behaviour.

Agree with pretty much everything you've said here and above, even though I'm inclined the other way on the issue.

Like pretty much everything in politics, it's mostly illusions to craft the populace so as to perpetuate the incompetent.

[/cynic]

Just noticed my typo, but in my defence, surely there must be a beer...

[andy_s]

biggbn said:

Just noticed my typo, but in my defence, surely there must be a beer...

I think the beer way is the best way, I'll stop wineing...

[lothianJim]

I find the distaste for political manoeuvring a little disingenuous. There is obviously real groundswell snp are capitalising on, not entirely self crafted, otherwise they wouldn’t get the votes. Wouldn’t it be odd if they didn’t exploit this.

Sticking head in the sand without meeting at the table achieves nothing. Unless another party is willing to meet in the middle and acknowledge voters want at the least, further devolution and a slow if painful creep to the left even if poorly implemented, no other party is going to dent the SNP.

Not sure I would relish the responsibility of reforming universal credit either. Not surprising it’s been kicked into long grass. This stuff takes years or decades. Certainly more than 2.

Until covid came along I bet snp were happy to drag it out for years or more. But convergence of Brexit and covid offers a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity to take a short cut, albeit one with a very bumpy landing.

Edited by lothianJim on Sunday 8th November 11:04

[Pastor Of Muppets]

lothianJim said:

I find the distaste for political manoeuvring a little disingenuous. There is obviously real groundswell sno are capitalising on, not entirely self crafted, otherwise they wouldn’t get the votes. Wouldn’t it be odd if they didn’t exploit this.

Sticking head in the sand without meeting at the table achieves nothing. Unless another party is willing to meet in the middle and acknowledge voters want at the least, further devolution and a slow if painful creep to the left even if only symbolic, no other party is going to dent the SNP.

Not sure I would relish the responsibility of reforming universal credit either. Not surprising it’s been locked into long grass

Edited by lothianJim on Sunday 8th November 10:58

You changed that from 'amp' to 'sno', are you on about guitars or the weather?

[Evercross]

lothianJim said:

I find the distaste for political manoeuvring a little disingenuous. There is obviously real groundswell SNP are capitalising on, not entirely self crafted, otherwise they wouldn’t get the votes.

At every election since 2007 the incumbent SNP leader has campaigned while saying "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence".

That in and of itself dispels the assertion that SNP support is a proxy for independence.

As for the 'groundswell', expect the wave of opinion polls favourable to the SNP position to subside now that Joseph Goebbels Angus Robertson has earned won his nomination.

[lothianJim]

Pastor Of Muppets said:

You changed that from 'amp' to 'sno', are you on about guitars or the weather?

If S.n.p. made autocorrect

Re proxy for independence. You don’t poll 60% of the popular vote without saying a lot of things to a lot of different people.

Edited by lothianJim on Sunday 8th November 11:19

[Evercross]

lothianJim said:

Re proxy for independence. You don’t get 60% of the popular vote without saying a lot of things to a lot of different people.

That has never happened in the history of the SNP, and I'll bet my house and pension it will not happen for them next year for Holyrood.

If your are deriving the '60%' figure from the opinion polls I will remind you again - Angus Robertson!

[Ecosseven]

biggbn said:

Are people really saying those in favour of independence should just swallow it and forget about it? Isn't that a hugely naive look at politics and how it works, particularly when it is the politics of independence? This is an issue that will not go away, indeed, I suspect it will become more of an issue involving a more emotive electorate, a rather dangerous situation that will be engendered by a changing demographic and a poorly performing UK government, helped in no small matter by a partisan press North of the border.

Those that want to stop it should really stop the name calling and diminutization of those who support and independent Scotland, instead concentrating on a forensic dismantling of the current lots policies on currency, defence, infrastructure and reliance on confused fossil fuel revenue to balance their transparent arguments. And no, I dont mean shouting abuse on an Internet forum. Get the questions out there, consistently, do not give these liars an inch to wriggle in, for wriggle they will. I am pro independence and I would like these questions answered, in a full, thoughtful way, not a 'we will be ok' dismissive soundbite. We won't be ok. Not for a good while. But I believe we could be. The SNP in its current form will never admit this to a salivating electorate stoked by divisive rhetoric, because it wouldn't fly, would it. They need to have the courage of their convictions because at the minute, they merely resemble a tartan convered version of every other political party in the UK, a bunch of self serving cheats and liars with their collective snouts in the public trough.

Good post Biggbn. Whilst I am pro-union I agree with a lot of what you have said.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

lothianJim said:

Re proxy for independence. You don’t poll 60% of the popular vote without having the polling company run by an SNP member
and deceitfully manipulating the result to suit their agenda.

Edited by lothianJim on Sunday 8th November 11:13

FTFY.

[anonymous-user]

I'm a supporter of the Union and don't believe Scotland would be best served by being independent (unless it could secure membership of the EU. Which would not be guaranteed).

Nor am I a fan of the SNP and their wont to be divisive.

However, I also believe in democracy.

I can't see a good reason why, following exit from the EU and with consistent ongoing support for the SNP, the people of Scotland should be denied the right to answer the question again?

[lothianJim]

Evercross said:

That has never happened in the history of the SNP, and I'll bet my house and pension it will not happen for them next year for Holyrood.

If your are deriving the '60%' figure from the opinion polls I will remind you again - Angus Robertson!

Very happy to concede there is much strategic bias to these polls. But elections are not entirely immune either. What gives you confidence the swing won’t carry through?

[pic]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election.png[\pic]

[Evercross]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

I can't see a good reason why, following exit from the EU and with consistent ongoing support for the SNP, the people of Scotland should be denied the right to answer the question again?

Covered that already. The SNP, specifically Alex Salmond, lied when he said Scotland would accede to EU membership as a successor state if it were to become independent. He lied, he spent money covering up the lie, and then when forced to come clean sent his second-in-command into Holyrood to admit on his behalf that he had lied.

Voting 'Yes' in 2014 meant you were voting to leave the EU, regardless of whether you believed it to be the case otherwise or not. The idea that voting 'No' was a guarantee that the UK and therefore Scotland would never leave the EU in future was never a prospect, regardless if whether you believed that to be the case or not.

The SNP have peddled their lie ever since and you are alluding to it above.

Edited by Evercross on Sunday 8th November 11:36

[Roderick Spode]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

I'm a supporter of the Union and don't believe Scotland would be best served by being independent (unless it could secure membership of the EU. Which would not be guaranteed).

Nor am I a fan of the SNP and their wont to be divisive.

However, I also believe in democracy.

I can't see a good reason why, following exit from the EU and with consistent ongoing support for the SNP, the people of Scotland should be denied the right to answer the question again?

This "Material change of circumstances" the SNP and their followers like to trot out ad nauseam regarding the Brexit vote was nothing of the sort, and was clearly spelled out in the SNP's own White Paper of Lies and Disinformation. In fact, said change of circumstances would have definitely happened in the event of a yes vote in 2014, so to attempt to use this as a grievance for a fresh referendum is at best disingenuous, at worst duplicitous.

[lothianJim]

Ecosseven said:

biggbn said:

Are people really saying those in favour of independence should just swallow it and forget about it? Isn't that a hugely naive look at politics and how it works, particularly when it is the politics of independence? . (Snip)

Good post Biggbn. Whilst I am pro-union I agree with a lot of what you have said.

Exactly. It’s not enough to dismantle what’s wrong with snp policy. Opposition also needs to build bridges with what snp is doing right in eyes of electorate.

Aspirationally, at least. Negativity alone won’t foster change.

Edited by lothianJim on Sunday 8th November 11:40