What's wrong with Britain 2012
Discussion
Re:Op Post,
Right on with that, agree every word, I think I set my views out on the Oxford St stabbing thread, (memo to self must reply to LostBMW tonight on those sentencing details requested)
If you question what has happened on a particular case, all you get is a load of arse covering grief about why are you interested in this case plus a load of justification on the mitigations. Personally having done that I'm not going to do that again, nor would advise anyone to do it. Attack via the stats which show up the mess we are in.
The problem is that, as identified by the OP, if they get sentenced for a series of offences, it's all served concurently, plus they don't actually serve what they get. If they really believe they are going to get a genuine 5 stretch or longer, watch them crumple up and blubber.
To me if you look at the sentencing guidelines and then try and rationalise that to what is given it makes no sense. In the mags the guidelines are the starting point for a first time offender and then there are aggravating and mitigating factors to be applied to determine the actual sentence. When you compare the sentencing for the most serious cases, ie the ones where the mags have sent to crown court for sentencing, then it's a mockery.
How can we continue to support a system where in 2009 (picked that because I happen to have the Excel file in my recent list) where the sentencing stats for 91,120 offenders with 15 or over previous convictions received as follows
Absolute discharge 0.4%
Conditional discharge 10.5%
Fine 15.9%
Community Sentence 21.6%
Fully suspended sentence 8.8%
Immediate Custody 37.8%
Other 5.0%
Jesus Titty Effing Christ on a bicycle.
If they don't see there is any effective punishment they'll not stop doing the crimes.
To add to the OP list of something I would do, not going to be popular, but I'd knock 24 hour licensing on the head immediately. Blair et al thought it would all be nice refined little chats over a bottle of red, and maybe some cosy tasty nibbles.
Instead it's still sprockling in the gutter at 6am with scrotes off their heads on blue vodka based beverages with his fat tart shouting and grappling from the sidelines. Only two hours before the shopkeepers have to open up, sweep the glass away and wash off the bloodstains on their doorsteps. Either that or clean up the expelled second hand kebab and piss from said fat drunken tart.
Re the politics bit. The thing that would stop me is the media, picking and picking and picking on some irrelevant point, I'd end up t
tting John Humphries on air.
Right on with that, agree every word, I think I set my views out on the Oxford St stabbing thread, (memo to self must reply to LostBMW tonight on those sentencing details requested)
If you question what has happened on a particular case, all you get is a load of arse covering grief about why are you interested in this case plus a load of justification on the mitigations. Personally having done that I'm not going to do that again, nor would advise anyone to do it. Attack via the stats which show up the mess we are in.
The problem is that, as identified by the OP, if they get sentenced for a series of offences, it's all served concurently, plus they don't actually serve what they get. If they really believe they are going to get a genuine 5 stretch or longer, watch them crumple up and blubber.
To me if you look at the sentencing guidelines and then try and rationalise that to what is given it makes no sense. In the mags the guidelines are the starting point for a first time offender and then there are aggravating and mitigating factors to be applied to determine the actual sentence. When you compare the sentencing for the most serious cases, ie the ones where the mags have sent to crown court for sentencing, then it's a mockery.
How can we continue to support a system where in 2009 (picked that because I happen to have the Excel file in my recent list) where the sentencing stats for 91,120 offenders with 15 or over previous convictions received as follows
Absolute discharge 0.4%
Conditional discharge 10.5%
Fine 15.9%
Community Sentence 21.6%
Fully suspended sentence 8.8%
Immediate Custody 37.8%
Other 5.0%
Jesus Titty Effing Christ on a bicycle.
If they don't see there is any effective punishment they'll not stop doing the crimes.
To add to the OP list of something I would do, not going to be popular, but I'd knock 24 hour licensing on the head immediately. Blair et al thought it would all be nice refined little chats over a bottle of red, and maybe some cosy tasty nibbles.
Instead it's still sprockling in the gutter at 6am with scrotes off their heads on blue vodka based beverages with his fat tart shouting and grappling from the sidelines. Only two hours before the shopkeepers have to open up, sweep the glass away and wash off the bloodstains on their doorsteps. Either that or clean up the expelled second hand kebab and piss from said fat drunken tart.
Re the politics bit. The thing that would stop me is the media, picking and picking and picking on some irrelevant point, I'd end up t
tting John Humphries on air.crankedup said:
Nothing too much wrong in Britain when compared to other European Countries. If you don't like it don't sit there, emigrate.
No idea when you were last in a european community setting e.g. medium size central German town or southern Spanish equivalent, but your remark is curious if you have recent experience as in my view they are as different from their equivalent in Britain as chalk and fromage. One word would set them apart - civilisation.As to what people do about it, plenty of people are doing what they can about it, my sympathy goes to those who have no choice for whatever reason. The only hope there remains 'ignorance is bliss'.
F i F said:
If they don't see there is any effective punishment they'll not stop doing the crimes.
I think you'll find it's a bit* more complicated than that.Reducing crime isn't a simple matter of imposing ever more onerous punishments.
It's a horrifically complex mess of social, legal and financial factors.
As before: in China, they do (or did; it seems that the very specific offence of forging invoices to avoid taxes is no longer a capital one) shoot your head off for diddling the tax man. And yet people still do it. Why? Presumably a mix of desperation, a sense that only other people get caught, flat-out not thinking of the consequences, and other things I've not thought of.
I can't think of many worse things to do to a society than make criminals into people with nothing to lose.
*a lot
CommanderJameson said:
F i F said:
If they don't see there is any effective punishment they'll not stop doing the crimes.
I think you'll find it's a bit* more complicated than that.Reducing crime isn't a simple matter of imposing ever more onerous punishments.
*a lot
For example, how is a lifelong career criminal going to inflict harm on any individual or law-abiding community during a 20-year stretch inside?
Multiply this by the 100,000 or so known repeat (serious) offenders and you have a far better quality of life for decent gentlefolk.
CommanderJameson said:
As before: in China, they do (or did; it seems that the very specific offence of forging invoices to avoid taxes is no longer a capital one) shoot your head off for diddling the tax man.
You're comparing apples with hatstands again. Different country and a very different political past.CommanderJameson said:
And yet people still do it. Why? Presumably a mix of desperation, a sense that only other people get caught, flat-out not thinking of the consequences, and other things I've not thought of.
You've answered your own question as to why; poverty.In the UK, despite widening social gaps, we do not have anything like the same poverty. We also have a very generous, arguably over-generous welfare safety net.
Edited to sort quoting.
Edited by Digga on Wednesday 4th January 13:21
CommanderJameson said:
Reducing crime isn't a simple matter of imposing ever more onerous punishments.
That isn't what I said, society has determined a level of punishment, commonly referred to as sentencing guidelines, together with ways these should be interpreted.These guidelines are basically having a coach and horses repeatedly driven through them in favour of the scrotes.
If somebody has had a sentence reduced on mitigation because difficult upbringing / new father / gang member (category hanger on) / does the shopping for his auntie / what have you then fair enough.
16 sentencings later I think he/she has had enough free throws of the dice and yet the same mitigation is trotted out again.
Anyone who can't see that the current sentencing pattern by the courts is wrong is also imo part of the problem.
F i F said:
That isn't what I said, society has determined a level of punishment, commonly referred to as sentencing guidelines, together with ways these should be interpreted.
These guidelines are basically having a coach and horses repeatedly driven through them in favour of the scrotes.
If somebody has had a sentence reduced on mitigation because difficult upbringing / new father / gang member (category hanger on) / does the shopping for his auntie / what have you then fair enough.
16 sentencings later I think he/she has had enough free throws of the dice and yet the same mitigation is trotted out again.
Anyone who can't see that the current sentencing pattern by the courts is wrong is also imo part of the problem.
I quite agree that current sentencing guidelines need review. But there's simply no point jumping to the opposite extreme; as evidenced by the USA, building ever more prisons and locking people up for decades doesn't do much (compared to the amount of money that needs to be spent) for reducing the crime rate.These guidelines are basically having a coach and horses repeatedly driven through them in favour of the scrotes.
If somebody has had a sentence reduced on mitigation because difficult upbringing / new father / gang member (category hanger on) / does the shopping for his auntie / what have you then fair enough.
16 sentencings later I think he/she has had enough free throws of the dice and yet the same mitigation is trotted out again.
Anyone who can't see that the current sentencing pattern by the courts is wrong is also imo part of the problem.
One thing in particular that raises my ire is the predilection, at least as reported in the local rag here, for defence counsel to raise their client's alcohol or drug problem as mitigating factors for their actions. I find this outrageous.
crankedup said:
Nothing too much wrong in Britain when compared to other European Countries. If you don't like it don't sit there, emigrate.
[A] Absolute rubbish.[B] why should we have to accept our country being turned into such a dump that we feel the need to emigrate?
The idiots we put in charge and the system they are supposed to be create and monitor (why do judges constantly seem to get away with giving sentences that rile the general decent citizen beyond belief without the law/sentencing guidelines having been addressed?) should be working to make it better/safer; 'see precious little evidence of them having done so for many a year.
shauniebabes said:
If the UK really was as strict as Singapore then everyone on here would be complaining about living in a police state. Although as Singapore has internment without trial and press censorship, criticism of the regime rarely happens.
I worked in London and now work in Singapore.In one city I'd be watched by CCTV all day, and see photographers being questioned by the police for taking pictures in a public place at the train station - which of the two places do you think I am describing?
hornet said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
Without going into details about said family, what do you suggest people who arn't as intelligent as you do?
I don't see how lack of education is an excuse in all honesty, given we all have access to the same state system. Enough of us go through said system and don't wind up benefit dependent with an army of feral kids, so I don't see why we should continually make excuses for people in that situation. Comes back to a sense of personal responsibility. I can understand one or two kids and then life dealing you a bad hand, that's what the benefit system is for, but when you're up to five or six and moaning about not having a big enough place, someone needs to be having a word. I'm not suggesting these folk are living the life of riley or anything, but it can't be fair that people with no intention of working can be on an "income" greater than an average working couple and living in houses those of us who do work couldn't possibly hope to afford without mortgaging ourselves to the eyeballs?Of the one family I do know receiving extra help, with the 7 disfunctional children, this is a special case. Initially, it begun with a young girl pre-teenager whose parents had failed her. The father left, the mother incapable of looking after her and was put up for adoption. An extended family member did an honourable thing (in my opinion) and adopted this child. Going through school it was very clear she needed extra help and was obviously struggling, not just because of the emotional trauma.
After much effort and assistance from her adopted family and social services she was deemed fit to live on her own with a sense of independence around 22. They tried to offer her a normal life and fortunately or unfortunately, she found several partners who were just as problematic as she was and used her. Two babies came, then another...then another partner and she now has 7 children (2 of them are her new partners children). At no stage has she had extra children to "tick a box to get a better life".
No one can say what she has done by having so many children is the right thing to do. She is just stupid...4 of her 5 children have been born with serious learning disabilities from downs syndrome to aspergers. The partner was working, but was advised that the mother just could not cope with so many children and he was taken out of work after Social services came to step in. The extended family member of mine had to agree to also help look after these kids during the day and thus spends 3 of the 7days of the week reading to the children, playing with them, trying to help in anyway he possibly can.
As I said, this family did not just continue to have children because they would get a better place to live. They just did it because they are stupid and if they were starving in Africa they still would have just had unprotected sex.
I just don't buy into that Daily Mail BS of "family has 7 babies and get mansion for free WHILE YOU SLAVE AWAY LIVING A TERRIBLE LIFE!"
Bing o said:
highway said:
Do people generally think that, all things considered, life and society in the UK now are better than say 20 years ago?
Absolutely no way. Unless you include iPads, Sky HD and Plasma tellys.There is something sick in the UK, a cancer caused by 13 years of rights over reponsibilities and an overly liberal approach to crime and punishment.
Only something sick in the last 13years eh?
I spoke on another thread a while ago so instead of typing it out twice;
I know of someone, who has recently chosen to quit her part-time job of 14hours a week because her childcare costs are now more than she was earning. It's cheaper for the family to rely on 1 income only now...it's a shame.
Anyway, council estates arn't something that have sprung open in the last 10 years. When my parents bought their house in Hemel Hempstead in 1977 they quickly developed a council estate latched onto the side of the existing one. Allegedly, it was initially filled with the dregs of Tottenham etc. As a child, the playground was very much a no-go zone as it was on the boundary between the council estate side and the non-council estate side.
There was a genuine feeling of divide amongst our community. We had our junior school, they had theirs...and the quality of the people and the homes were very different! Every bit of trouble I had growing up before the age of 12 was from the opposite side of the estate...even arson of some of my parents property and physical and verbal violence.
But things have improved. There is still a divide, but much less so and the majority of the council estate looks a lot more pleasant. However, as I got older more trouble came from the side of the estate I had lived on, for my whole life. Abuse from neighbours, one neighbours daughter reversing into my then, pride and joy and driving off (as mentioned in the other thread, the daughter of the mayor of the Dacorum) other neighbours doing burnouts outside our house etc.
Moving away from the estate was the best thing I ever did, but not because of the council estate side.
This may not be the case for you or where you live, but of all the places I go to when visiting friends and family, they're all nice places. I feel bad for you if where you live has only recently turned into a worse place, but where I live now is fantastic and has an excellent sense of community.
Edited by SpeedMattersNot on Wednesday 4th January 13:03
SpeedMattersNot said:
However, as I got older more trouble came from the side of the estate I had lived on, for my whole life.
I know a place like this.A non-council estate where most previous trouble was imported, but now does such a good line in growing its own bother the place is going downhill rapidly. I can understand the point you're making and also worry that this is indicative of some broader change in (previously middle class) society.
turbobloke said:
No idea when you were last in a european community setting e.g. medium size central German town or southern Spanish equivalent, but your remark is curious if you have recent experience as in my view they are as different from their equivalent in Britain as chalk and fromage. One word would set them apart - civilisation.
As to what people do about it, plenty of people are doing what they can about it, my sympathy goes to those who have no choice for whatever reason. The only hope there remains 'ignorance is bliss'.
If people in the U.K. are so fed up, as so many posters seem to be from what I read in Pistonheads, why do they stay in this Country? I say to them emigrate. My last visits to Europe were during 2011 when I was in Southern France and back later in the year to Spain. Both occasions were social, but I found Spain to be utterly depressing with so much unemployment and unfinished building projects. France, not quite as bad, but again unemployment, closed down shops and empty properties. A pervading air of gloom. So I say the U.K. isn't as bad as some may think IMO, otherwise emigrate.As to what people do about it, plenty of people are doing what they can about it, my sympathy goes to those who have no choice for whatever reason. The only hope there remains 'ignorance is bliss'.
Lost_BMW said:
[A] Absolute rubbish.
[B] why should we have to accept our country being turned into such a dump that we feel the need to emigrate?
The idiots we put in charge and the system they are supposed to be create and monitor (why do judges constantly seem to get away with giving sentences that rile the general decent citizen beyond belief without the law/sentencing guidelines having been addressed?) should be working to make it better/safer; 'see precious little evidence of them having done so for many a year.
Having seen the so called problems of the past fifty years to date, I sense no real fundamental changes have taken place. Yes the population has increased and we are now a multi-cultural society. Of course the Government should be doing this and that to make life better and I agree with you, not much seems to happen in that respect for some. If people are so dis-satisfied then they should emigrate, sure as night turns to day the improvements craved here are simply not going to happen to the extent some wish for. So in the real world emigrate! Personally I would up sticks right now for New Zealand, but they won't let me in due to my old age, they set an age limit of 55 years. [B] why should we have to accept our country being turned into such a dump that we feel the need to emigrate?
The idiots we put in charge and the system they are supposed to be create and monitor (why do judges constantly seem to get away with giving sentences that rile the general decent citizen beyond belief without the law/sentencing guidelines having been addressed?) should be working to make it better/safer; 'see precious little evidence of them having done so for many a year.
the grass is always greener...
However, I left London in 2000 and have no regrets. Growing up in London – or any other big city – you tend to think that everywhere in the country is like that but as soon as you move out you realise that Britain still has plenty of very nice places, populated in the majority but decent hard working people just trying to get on with their lives. Even London – and I have desire to ever move back there – has lots of good going for it amongst all the dross.
However, I left London in 2000 and have no regrets. Growing up in London – or any other big city – you tend to think that everywhere in the country is like that but as soon as you move out you realise that Britain still has plenty of very nice places, populated in the majority but decent hard working people just trying to get on with their lives. Even London – and I have desire to ever move back there – has lots of good going for it amongst all the dross.
crankedup said:
Having seen the so called problems of the past fifty years to date, I sense no real fundamental changes have taken place. Yes the population has increased and we are now a multi-cultural society. Of course the Government should be doing this and that to make life better and I agree with you, not much seems to happen in that respect for some. If people are so dis-satisfied then they should emigrate, sure as night turns to day the improvements craved here are simply not going to happen to the extent some wish for. So in the real world emigrate! Personally I would up sticks right now for New Zealand, but they won't let me in due to my old age, they set an age limit of 55 years.
I would very much like to leave, and may well retire to Sweden if I have the chance, but I have two small children and a wife who wouldn't dream of it.Further, why should I or others need to/have to feel this way? Our govt. should be listening to a clear enough despair from the public and working harder to clean this increasingly 'mess of a place' up.
Those posting advice to emigrate miss the point entirely. The UK should be a nicer place to live than it is currently. We dont get earthquakes, tornados or other natural disasters that afflict other parts of the world. No bear or spider likely to give you a nasty bite and the state aren't likely to do you a naughty should you publicly disagree with them.
Our natural predators, such as they are, seem to be the underclass. Those who dont contribute (dont want to contribute) and ruin the lives of those they interact with, neighbours, those they breed with even those they engage in a bit of road rage with.
I want to see the goverment acknowledge these people are growing in number, then tell me exactly what they propose to do to tackle the problem these people represent.
If you are lucky enough to live somewhere where you dont have to interact with these people, then good for you. Many of us aren't so lucky. Advising people to move somewhere "nicer" again misses the point.
No council estates are built over ancient indian burial grounds, or are toxic by their location. What can blight an estate, a neighbourhood or a road are the actions of often one or two families. Is it too much to expect for our goverment to act to make life better for the many by dealing with the actions of what fortunately, remain the few..
Our natural predators, such as they are, seem to be the underclass. Those who dont contribute (dont want to contribute) and ruin the lives of those they interact with, neighbours, those they breed with even those they engage in a bit of road rage with.
I want to see the goverment acknowledge these people are growing in number, then tell me exactly what they propose to do to tackle the problem these people represent.
If you are lucky enough to live somewhere where you dont have to interact with these people, then good for you. Many of us aren't so lucky. Advising people to move somewhere "nicer" again misses the point.
No council estates are built over ancient indian burial grounds, or are toxic by their location. What can blight an estate, a neighbourhood or a road are the actions of often one or two families. Is it too much to expect for our goverment to act to make life better for the many by dealing with the actions of what fortunately, remain the few..
Why not just move to a decent area?
Chances are, no matter where you live, you'll end up living near to someone you don't like.
A guy I used to work with, was incredibly deluded and bitter. He didn't think he should pay taxes for people who had kids (as he had no desire to have children), openly claimed that homosexuallity was 'not right' and gave his neighbours grief for it until they moved! And of course, he hated what he called "jardies". (I'd never heard of "jardies" before but he meant Pakistani/indians/anyone who looked slightly asian really!)
He lived in Luton!
If you don't like where you live, work harder and live in a better area - or if you really do feel the entire country is crumbling beneath your feet - moving country is your only option and your family and friends will no doubt be moving with you.
Chances are, no matter where you live, you'll end up living near to someone you don't like.
A guy I used to work with, was incredibly deluded and bitter. He didn't think he should pay taxes for people who had kids (as he had no desire to have children), openly claimed that homosexuallity was 'not right' and gave his neighbours grief for it until they moved! And of course, he hated what he called "jardies". (I'd never heard of "jardies" before but he meant Pakistani/indians/anyone who looked slightly asian really!)
He lived in Luton!
If you don't like where you live, work harder and live in a better area - or if you really do feel the entire country is crumbling beneath your feet - moving country is your only option and your family and friends will no doubt be moving with you.
highway said:
Our natural predators, such as they are, seem to be the underclass.
a funny observation
Sadly though, so true it's really not that funny in reality.
I want to see the goverment acknowledge these people are growing in number, then tell me exactly what they propose to do to tackle the problem these people represent.
absolutely hits nail on head. Exactly what they should be doing.
a funny observation
Sadly though, so true it's really not that funny in reality.I want to see the goverment acknowledge these people are growing in number, then tell me exactly what they propose to do to tackle the problem these people represent.
absolutely hits nail on head. Exactly what they should be doing.
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