Who is most hated - Thatcher or Blair
Discussion
Countdown said:
Outside of PH I don't think Blair is hated that much. The hatred for Thatcher is much much greater. Hence the celebrations about her death even though she'd not been in power for 20+ years.
In 20+ years Blair will be unknown.
I'm guessing you don't read the Guardian?In 20+ years Blair will be unknown.
On the left, Blair is regarded as a corrupt right-wing capitalist war criminal with a messiah complex who hijacked the Labour Party, used it for his own ends, betrayed everything it once stood for and abused his position to enrich himself.
HoHoHo said:
Thatcher changed Britain and her influence can still be seen cross-partly regardless of those who suggest otherwise.
She changed the way the unions acted (voting rights etc.) and made an attempt to stop the frankly idiotic powers and disputes caused by the unions (and I do think unions are generally a good supporter of the employee btw)
She gave people the choice to buy their own council homes
She started reforms of the NHS
She kept the Falklands British
She de-regulated the stock market
Share ownership trebled in the Thatcher years
She gave people the choice to make a difference in their lives
Some good points but I think Thatcher's problem is she threw the baby out with the bathwater. Unions for example, she set out to destroy them and the mining industry. The communities felt the brunt of this but they were never Tory heartland so it didn't matter. Both the unions in general and the mining industry needed an overhaul but trying to destroy them was not the way. A long term plan for the communities, the unions and mines could have saved thousands of jobs. Instead it created a them and us situation which meant Thatcher was hated across the country. The miners strike and subsequent violence was a product of that.She changed the way the unions acted (voting rights etc.) and made an attempt to stop the frankly idiotic powers and disputes caused by the unions (and I do think unions are generally a good supporter of the employee btw)
She gave people the choice to buy their own council homes
She started reforms of the NHS
She kept the Falklands British
She de-regulated the stock market
Share ownership trebled in the Thatcher years
She gave people the choice to make a difference in their lives
Giving people the choice to buy their own council homes created a social housing shortage and swathes of Tory voters.
She started privatisation of the NHS
Any benefit from anything she did (and I'm not saying there were no benefits) is diminished because of the numbers who were disenfranchised by her and her government. But they were traditionally working class Labour voters so didn't matter.
Bradgate said:
Countdown said:
Outside of PH I don't think Blair is hated that much. The hatred for Thatcher is much much greater. Hence the celebrations about her death even though she'd not been in power for 20+ years.
In 20+ years Blair will be unknown.
I'm guessing you don't read the Guardian?In 20+ years Blair will be unknown.
On the left, Blair is regarded as a corrupt right-wing capitalist war criminal with a messiah complex who hijacked the Labour Party, used it for his own ends, betrayed everything it once stood for and abused his position to enrich himself.
I've neard more criticism (a somewhat inadequate word to describe the bile and invective directed towards him) of Blair from left wingers than I have from those on the right.
Hackney said:
Some good points but I think Thatcher's problem is she threw the baby out with the bathwater. Unions for example, she set out to destroy them and the mining industry. The communities felt the brunt of this but they were never Tory heartland so it didn't matter. Both the unions in general and the mining industry needed an overhaul but trying to destroy them was not the way. A long term plan for the communities, the unions and mines could have saved thousands of jobs. Instead it created a them and us situation which meant Thatcher was hated across the country. The miners strike and subsequent violence was a product of that.
Giving people the choice to buy their own council homes created a social housing shortage and swathes of Tory voters.
She started privatisation of the NHS
Any benefit from anything she did (and I'm not saying there were no benefits) is diminished because of the numbers who were disenfranchised by her and her government. But they were traditionally working class Labour voters so didn't matter.
Mining was a dying industry with or without Thatcher and since the 70s has declined as much or more under Labour governments as under Conservative. Giving people the choice to buy their own council homes created a social housing shortage and swathes of Tory voters.
She started privatisation of the NHS
Any benefit from anything she did (and I'm not saying there were no benefits) is diminished because of the numbers who were disenfranchised by her and her government. But they were traditionally working class Labour voters so didn't matter.
People hate Thatcher most of all for recognising when an industry was dead and putting it out of its misery. They would have preferred to live in a fantasy world where cost and competitiveness didn't matter.
JagLover said:
Mining was a dying industry with or without Thatcher and since the 70s has declined as much or more under Labour governments as under Conservative.
People hate Thatcher most of all for recognising when an industry was dead and putting it out of its misery. They would have preferred to live in a fantasy world where cost and competitiveness didn't matter.
It's always strange when people complain about Thatcher and mining when her role in its decline was less than those that preceded and succeeded her, and Bliar killed off more manufacturing than she did. It was a case of some loudmouths making a lot of noise and an onside media making the most of it, the rump on the left won't ever like what she did as it revealed all that was wrong with politicised unions operating well beyond their remit and highlighted the empty promises of leftism.People hate Thatcher most of all for recognising when an industry was dead and putting it out of its misery. They would have preferred to live in a fantasy world where cost and competitiveness didn't matter.
More and more subsidies for less and less competitive/viable industries...dream on.
Worth remembering that Thatcher was a fan of Blair even before she lost her marbles.
Truth is they are two of the the most effective PMs this country has ever had and they both achieved an enormous amount ... and also cocked some stuff up too. The impact they had on their parties was enormous.
It doesn't matter who you are or what you've achieved. If you've been in office for a couple of terms, the public will get tired of your face and start blaming you for all the perceived problems of the country regardless of whether the government could reasonably be expected to have intervened or not.
The current "hatred" of Blair is just the tail end of that response. The idea that he was only motivated by self interest is utterly absurd. No serious political observer makes that charge regardless of their own political persuasion. It is very hard to argue that another PM would have kept us out of Afghanistan or Iraq, be it a Tory or an electable Labour PM.
Time has to pass before we collectively get a bit of historical perspective and Blair's time in office is still far too recent for that to have happened.
Truth is they are two of the the most effective PMs this country has ever had and they both achieved an enormous amount ... and also cocked some stuff up too. The impact they had on their parties was enormous.
It doesn't matter who you are or what you've achieved. If you've been in office for a couple of terms, the public will get tired of your face and start blaming you for all the perceived problems of the country regardless of whether the government could reasonably be expected to have intervened or not.
The current "hatred" of Blair is just the tail end of that response. The idea that he was only motivated by self interest is utterly absurd. No serious political observer makes that charge regardless of their own political persuasion. It is very hard to argue that another PM would have kept us out of Afghanistan or Iraq, be it a Tory or an electable Labour PM.
Time has to pass before we collectively get a bit of historical perspective and Blair's time in office is still far too recent for that to have happened.
ATG said:
It doesn't matter who you are or what you've achieved. If you've been in office for a couple of terms, the public will get tired of your face and start blaming you for all the perceived problems of the country regardless of whether the government could reasonably be expected to have intervened or not.
True enough, though it was four terms for the Conservatives as of 1997.
d's bodyBlair is an utter cretin, with no redeemable qualities whatsoever.
Thatcher, whilst I don't agree with all her policies by a long stretch, is by far the better leader, by whatever metric you care to apply.
who is most hated ? Thatcher.
Blair's much vaunted legacy will at best be a bit 'meh' if you forgive the phrase, in years to come, at worst the warmongering US poodle shyster that some call him for now.
Thatcher, whilst I don't agree with all her policies by a long stretch, is by far the better leader, by whatever metric you care to apply.
who is most hated ? Thatcher.
Blair's much vaunted legacy will at best be a bit 'meh' if you forgive the phrase, in years to come, at worst the warmongering US poodle shyster that some call him for now.
Hackney said:
Some good points but I think Thatcher's problem is she threw the baby out with the bathwater. Unions for example, she set out to destroy them and the mining industry. The communities felt the brunt of this but they were never Tory heartland so it didn't matter. Both the unions in general and the mining industry needed an overhaul but trying to destroy them was not the way. A long term plan for the communities, the unions and mines could have saved thousands of jobs. Instead it created a them and us situation which meant Thatcher was hated across the country. The miners strike and subsequent violence was a product of that.
Giving people the choice to buy their own council homes created a social housing shortage and swathes of Tory voters.
She started privatisation of the NHS
Any benefit from anything she did (and I'm not saying there were no benefits) is diminished because of the numbers who were disenfranchised by her and her government. But they were traditionally working class Labour voters so didn't matter.
I'm sorry but that's just revisionist nonsense. Thatcher did not "set out to destroy the Unions and the mining industry". What she set out to do was demonstrate clearly that it was the elected Government of the country that should be making the decisions, not the Union barons and their sheep-like followers. Thatcher had plans for coal but these were scuppered by the strike, - a strike which the Unions leaders actively sought! The destruction was a consequence of Scargill et al deciding that they could win, as they had done against Heath. Wilson, Callaghan. The strike came too early in Thatchers term in office for it to have been caused by hatred of her. The hatred came AFTER she won the strike - as indeed she simply had to do if the UK was to survive as a democratic society! Giving people the choice to buy their own council homes created a social housing shortage and swathes of Tory voters.
She started privatisation of the NHS
Any benefit from anything she did (and I'm not saying there were no benefits) is diminished because of the numbers who were disenfranchised by her and her government. But they were traditionally working class Labour voters so didn't matter.
HenryJM said:
ATG said:
The current "hatred" of Blair is just the tail end of that response.
I think I can safely say that my hatred of Blair started from his emergence and got no better through his appointments. An odious man.I remember waking up the morning after BLiar was elected thinking (pessimistically?) 'Well, that's it for the UK then'.
He did find us some good wars to join in though
My Mark 9 is still in a state from the weather damage caused while I was away 
FF
Getragdogleg said:
The people that hate thatcher will tell their children's children how she took away the milk and closed t pits......
It's a pity the second one of those is an over exaggeration. In the 6 years under Labour 1964 to 1970 around 200,000 people lost their jobs in the UK coal industry - that's almost double the number that lost their jobs under Thatcher and is around equal to the total number of jobs lost in the coal industry in the 36 years since Thatcher came to power.
What is also interesting from this graph is that the coal industry appears to have become much more efficient. Coal production in 1986 is only slightly below where it was in 1976 yet this was achieved with less than half of the manpower.
Lost soul said:
Triumph Man said:
That's because thatcher haters are generally noisy chavs and apparently now students.
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