The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2
Discussion
Hugh Jarse said:
50/50 split is very interesting. Not exactly a vote of confidence either way.
Hope to see a 60/40 one way or another. As others said, what are the silent / undecided truly thinking?
It says a lot about British politics that the leaders of the 2 main parties only appear to be in agreement on such a fundamental issue, with half the population.Hope to see a 60/40 one way or another. As others said, what are the silent / undecided truly thinking?
nightcruiser said:
A new week, another CMD message... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
Ignores the fact the EU member has hit the poorest and most vulnerable hardest through wage suppression and that EU tariffs increase the costs of goods being brought into the country and therefore the cost of living has risen. Strangely the BBC hasn't picked him up on this. Odd.The lies told to Norwegians before their EU referendum in 1994 - sound familiar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c
All very well posting this here, but how to warn the huddled masses that they are being repeatedly lied to?
All very well posting this here, but how to warn the huddled masses that they are being repeatedly lied to?
cookie118 said:
I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.
My advise young man, from an old fart Structural Engineer....if you actually want a long career in Engineering is to not listen to any academic who hasn't had a real job in the industry 
He's only thinking of his own personal reasons, and given my experience of EU funded 'research' projects that have led to ever more pointless regulations and red tape in my own field of Engineering in the past 30 years....I'm not surprised he's worried about his gravy train of EU funding ending.
I'd suggest there's more chance of us recovering some of our manufacturing by exiting, rather than loosing even more of it if we stay in.
aeropilot said:
cookie118 said:
I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.
My advise young man, from an old fart Structural Engineer....if you actually want a long career in Engineering is to not listen to any academic who hasn't had a real job in the industry He's only thinking of his own personal reasons, and given my experience of EU funded 'research' projects that have led to ever more pointless regulations and red tape in my own field of Engineering in the past 30 years....I'm not surprised he's worried about his gravy train of EU funding ending.
I'd suggest there's more chance of us recovering some of our manufacturing by exiting, rather than loosing even more of it if we stay in.
No one knows if the EU will allow UK manufacturing to prosper, or for it to subside further.
No one knows if the UK out will allow manufacturing to prosper, or subside further.
I've had politicians lie to me my whole life, and they apparently run the show. The Transport White Paper in the late 90s had me thinking we wouldn't need cars by 2015, and the UK would be a fully transport integrated country. Instead it's a s
t hole with crumbling roads, railways, jammed up networks and is still almost entirely car dependent where it was before.All I can say for certain is that if you join the EU you'll get a socialist future.
You only need to look at the vast youth unemployment across the EU currently, and the failing countries of Italy and now, and the already failed countries of Greece.
Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
Or do you want a future where you have control over your own future?
Go for the EU if you liked the look of the USSR in the 70s.
Go for Brexit if you liked the look of the UK in the 70s, at least to start with
Mr Whippy said:
You only need to look at the vast youth unemployment across the EU currently, and the failing countries of Italy and now, and the already failed countries of Greece.
Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
ATG said:
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
What happens if the EU decide to impose a new "virtually impossible to sack people" directive, making our employment laws similar to Spain and France's? As one of the causes of high youth unemployment in both countries, surely that would have a negative impact on youth unemployment in the UK?There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
Now before you say "it'll never happen", please explain how I as a UK voter can't help prevent such an occurrence were I to find out it was going to happen (assuming I found out before it was too late that is).
ATG said:
Mr Whippy said:
You only need to look at the vast youth unemployment across the EU currently, and the failing countries of Italy and now, and the already failed countries of Greece.
Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
Does the EU want high youth unemployment?
Does the member state try reduce it if it's undesirable?
Does the EU try enforce policy to reduce it if it's undesirable?
I'm convinced that the EU austerity rules on member states now unable to support their debts, will impact the ability of anyone to alter youth unemployment for the better in the medium to long term future.
How does the treatment of Greece and their inability to repay their debt enhance either the member states desire, or the EUs desire, to reduce youth unemployment?
The general point is that the EU isn't helping anyone of the member states to improve it's position while the Troika are incapable of writing off bad loans or structuring them to generate a potential for prosperity.
Yes there are big fundamental underlying issues, but if this is how full integration and union are born, at the cost of generations of Greeks (and maybe Italians, and Spanish, and Irish) futures prosperity, then I question the logic of buying into a union that sees that as a worthwhile price to pay.
Who wins in the short and medium term? The ultra rich/powerful only.
Long term, maybe we all benefit, but that will be our great grand children... and I'd say it's more likely to turn into USSR 2.0, not a socialist utopia.
ATG said:
Mr Whippy said:
You only need to look at the vast youth unemployment across the EU currently, and the failing countries of Italy and now, and the already failed countries of Greece.
Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.Do you want to be inside the EU where countries/states are dealt with like that? Where people appear to have no power over their own country any more, to improve their own futures for themselves?
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
ATG said:
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
You may be right about the various states unemployment levels being down to them, though I don't think so.
However, it's clear that being in the EU hasn't helped them at all, and they are suffering more now than they were before the Euro, before Schengen etc. It's hard to see how they could be much worse off.
Greece is certainly where it is a a result of being in the EU.
No displaying of the Union jack please, that supports Brexit !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/brexit-...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/brexit-...
TEKNOPUG said:
The economies, GDP & prosperity varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states also. So EU membership can't be responsible for that either, as it's all caused by domestic economic policy. Which makes all financial arguments about Brexit/Remain pointless.
Sorry, that's rubbish. Some aspects of the economy are strongly influenced by EU membership, others aren't.The EU provides a single market for goods and some services. That has a big impact on the cost of doing trade across the EU and for London's position as a financial centre for the EU. You can have a perfectly sensible discussion about the impact Brexit would have on the UK's access to the single market and the impact it will have on the City. It'd be daft not to think about these things.
REALIST123 said:
ATG said:
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
You may be right about the various states unemployment levels being down to them, though I don't think so.
Germany has done OK, so that's alright.
One or two business people supporting Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/15/lett...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-15/uk-establ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/15/lett...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-15/uk-establ...
ATG said:
What do you think youth unemployment rates should tell us? You need to recognise that the rate of youth unemployment varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states. That alone should tell us that it isn't EU membership that creates youth unemployment. It is caused by the failure of domestic economic policy in each of the states where it occurs. France is an obvious example. I don't know what rate it is running at at the moment, but most of the time they manage a staggering 25%. Why? Because it is virtually impossible to sack people, so hiring anyone is seen as a big risk. Once you're in work, you're set. That is nothing at all to do with the EU.
There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
It also tells you that the single currency is making that country's economy unable to compete. We get that in the UK - parts of the UK cannot attract jobs because our labour rates with the Pound where it is make low-skilled jobs uneconomic. However, we can deal with that because we have areas like London that can earn enough taxable Pounds so that the government can support the areas that can't survive. The EU does not have this mechanism of fiscal transfers. Therefore Greece and Spain cannot easily compete.There is no reason why continued EU membership will cause UK unemployment to converge on some European average. There is no mechanism that will cause that to happen.
If anyone is going to claim that we shouldn't be in the EU because of unemployment, they need to explain why they think UK unemployment is going to be affected by EU membership. Funnily enough, I've yet to hear anyone explain why. The only people I've heard try to link the two are Boris and IDS in their usual hand-wavy, guilt by association, blustering style. Regardless of whether one is inclined to vote in or out, one shouldn't find their hot air convincing.
REALIST123 said:
However, it's clear that being in the EU hasn't helped them at all, and they are suffering more now than they were before the Euro, before Schengen etc. It's hard to see how they could be much worse off.
Greece is certainly where it is a a result of being in the EU.
How on earth do you know how'd they'd have done outside the EU? Why do you think EU membership has definitely made things worse? We have a tremendous capacity to wildly exaggerate the impact a change will have over the short term while failing to appreciate its magnitude over the long run. Greece had only been a democracy for 7 years before they joined the EU in 1981. They've been in the EU for 35 years. The idea that you can dream up with confidence an accurate counter-factual history of a Greece that never joined the EU is fanciful.Greece is certainly where it is a a result of being in the EU.
ATG said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The economies, GDP & prosperity varies ENORMOUSLY between EU member states also. So EU membership can't be responsible for that either, as it's all caused by domestic economic policy. Which makes all financial arguments about Brexit/Remain pointless.
Sorry, that's rubbish. Some aspects of the economy are strongly influenced by EU membership, others aren't.The EU provides a single market for goods and some services. That has a big impact on the cost of doing trade across the EU and for London's position as a financial centre for the EU. You can have a perfectly sensible discussion about the impact Brexit would have on the UK's access to the single market and the impact it will have on the City. It'd be daft not to think about these things.
So the EU only has positive economic effects and all negative effects are down to individual member's policies?
That's what you think?
ATG said:
REALIST123 said:
However, it's clear that being in the EU hasn't helped them at all, and they are suffering more now than they were before the Euro, before Schengen etc. It's hard to see how they could be much worse off.
Greece is certainly where it is a a result of being in the EU.
How on earth do you know how'd they'd have done outside the EU? Why do you think EU membership has definitely made things worse? We have a tremendous capacity to wildly exaggerate the impact a change will have over the short term while failing to appreciate its magnitude over the long run. Greece had only been a democracy for 7 years before they joined the EU in 1981. They've been in the EU for 35 years. The idea that you can dream up with confidence an accurate counter-factual history of a Greece that never joined the EU is fanciful.Greece is certainly where it is a a result of being in the EU.
Edited by s2art on Monday 16th May 13:49
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