So what now for the Labour party?

[biggbn]

fblm said:

biggbn said:

I think those area deserted because they were strongly pro brexit and these Muppet's sat on their hands do long on the issue.

In the North West the memory of Militant Tendency is still fresh for the older generation. My FiL, a t&g convener for 30 years and staunch remainer, didn't vote Labour for the first time in his life not because of Brexit but because of Momentum.

So he must have voted for them during the times of militant tendency? What's changed? Leadership and brexit.

Sorry I'm really not getting your point, you are saying your father in law did not vote Labour for the first time in his life because momentum/because he remembers militant tendency. This means he must have voted for labour during militant tendency/michael foot years? Seems like quite a confused dude. Unless his politics have completed changed in which case i fully understand his choice

[otolith]

biggbn said:

otolith said:

(They are screwed because you and your fellow travellers wouldn't offer a moderate centrist party with a credible leader.)

So take the middle road and sacrifice beliefs for power? Seems like an underhanded tactic to me. Centrist like Blair? Murdering, lying scumbag. Actually, on reflection he would fit in well with today's political class.

Blair is complicated. If he hadn't fked up with foreign policy, he'd be remembered quite differently. The administration certainly had faults. Arrogance, more concerned with winning the argument than working out what was the right course (dodgy dossier for example), and it had a bit of a nasty authoritarian streak. But it also ran a modern, progressive, socially democratic agenda.

biggbn said:

Johnson's Tories won handily and that result should be respected as should the mandate it gives them to carry out Brexit. Labour needs to ditch it's leadership not its policies. An opposition must be strong but must offer a clear alternative

"Tories are dreadful far right bds"

also

"A moderate Labour Party is just the same as Tories"

[tali1]

Johnnytheboy said:

tali1 said:

Corbyn was dead rubber from the beginning -there was no way the voters were ever going to allow him to get into power.

EFA

EFA
https://dorseteye.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/p...

Edited by tali1 on Friday 13th December 19:09

[biggbn]

otolith said:

biggbn said:

otolith said:

(They are screwed because you and your fellow travellers wouldn't offer a moderate centrist party with a credible leader.)

So take the middle road and sacrifice beliefs for power? Seems like an underhanded tactic to me. Centrist like Blair? Murdering, lying scumbag. Actually, on reflection he would fit in well with today's political class.

Blair is complicated. If he hadn't fked up with foreign policy, he'd be remembered quite differently. The administration certainly had faults. Arrogance, more concerned with winning the argument than working out what was the right course (dodgy dossier for example), and it had a bit of a nasty authoritarian streak. But it also ran a modern, progressive, socially democratic agenda.

biggbn said:

Johnson's Tories won handily and that result should be respected as should the mandate it gives them to carry out Brexit. Labour needs to ditch it's leadership not its policies. An opposition must be strong but must offer a clear alternative

"Tories are dreadful far right bds"

also

"A moderate Labour Party is just the same as Tories"

But he did. And untold innocent lives were lost as a result. History cannot be predicated on 'ifs', it is predicated on what happened so forgive me if I do not shed a tear because the liar in chief took a bad decision that besmirched his otherwise spotless career, debatable as even that is. The man was a turncoat, an evangelical carpet bigger who successfully sold sand to the Arabs and kicked it in their respective faces. A Christian jihadist on the coattails of geedubbleyas toy army. Christ, I better stop

Er, sorry, I don't like him and won't forgive as he shows no sign of remorse

[otolith]

biggbn said:

otolith said:

biggbn said:

otolith said:

(They are screwed because you and your fellow travellers wouldn't offer a moderate centrist party with a credible leader.)

So take the middle road and sacrifice beliefs for power? Seems like an underhanded tactic to me. Centrist like Blair? Murdering, lying scumbag. Actually, on reflection he would fit in well with today's political class.

Blair is complicated. If he hadn't fked up with foreign policy, he'd be remembered quite differently. The administration certainly had faults. Arrogance, more concerned with winning the argument than working out what was the right course (dodgy dossier for example), and it had a bit of a nasty authoritarian streak. But it also ran a modern, progressive, socially democratic agenda.

biggbn said:

Johnson's Tories won handily and that result should be respected as should the mandate it gives them to carry out Brexit. Labour needs to ditch it's leadership not its policies. An opposition must be strong but must offer a clear alternative

"Tories are dreadful far right bds"

also

"A moderate Labour Party is just the same as Tories"

But he did. And untold innocent lives were lost as a result. History cannot be predicated on 'ifs', it is predicated on what happened so forgive me if I do not shed a tear because the liar in chief took a bad decision that besmirched his otherwise spotless career, debatable as even that is. The man was a turncoat, an evangelical carpet bigger who successfully sold sand to the Arabs and kicked it in their respective faces. A Christian jihadist on the coattails of geedubbleyas toy army. Christ, I better stop

Er, sorry, I don't like him and won't forgive as he shows no sign of remorse

I don't think anyone is suggesting, though, that we need a moderate Labour Party which will invade a middle Eastern country. It's about domestic policy.

[biggbn]

otolith said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting, though, that we need a moderate Labour Party which will invade a middle Eastern country. It's about domestic policy.

I just don't see a moderate centrist party as an alternative, it's just 'another' main party, two flavours of vanilla separated by a cigarette paper

[otolith]

biggbn said:

I just don't see a moderate centrist party as an alternative, it's just 'another' main party, two flavours of vanilla separated by a cigarette paper

So Boris Johnson's Tories are moderate centrists?

[Smiler.]

Somewhat relevant

[stongle]

biggbn said:

otolith said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting, though, that we need a moderate Labour Party which will invade a middle Eastern country. It's about domestic policy.

I just don't see a moderate centrist party as an alternative, it's just 'another' main party, two flavours of vanilla separated by a cigarette paper

But the country repeatedly rejects extreme parties. We live in a society that doesn't actually require revolution, or massive social upheaval- just better wealth redistribution. It seems most of the electorate got that, but some on the far left (Momentum) and right (arguably sections of BREXIT); only see their versions of the world. Which they try to project on everyone else. We don't need extreme opposition parties, just ones whom offer practical and deliverable policies - something Labour missed by a universe.

[Munter]

biggbn said:

otolith said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting, though, that we need a moderate Labour Party which will invade a middle Eastern country. It's about domestic policy.

I just don't see a moderate centrist party as an alternative, it's just 'another' main party, two flavours of vanilla separated by a cigarette paper

That'd be great.

Because if one of them wanders off in a stupid direction to try and win votes. They'll get a kicking like they haven't seen in say...100 years, and a sensible party would get in.

When they are pressed up together in the middle, it doesn't matter who get's in, the country is relatively safe.

I'd love to vote in an election where I wasn't terrified one of the likely winners was going to put us on a path to financial ruin, rationing and ultimately international sanctions. An election where I could shrug my shoulders and go...I prefer the way Mr X talks so I'd sooner he was on TV for the next 5 years. But if Mrs Y get's in, It'll be fine. Sign me up for that right now!

[biggbn]

Both of above comments valid points, thanks

[anonymous-user]

biggbn said:

So he must have voted for them during the times of militant tendency? What's changed? Leadership and brexit.

Sorry I'm really not getting your point, you are saying your father in law did not vote Labour for the first time in his life because momentum/because he remembers militant tendency. This means he must have voted for labour during militant tendency/michael foot years? Seems like quite a confused dude. Unless his politics have completed changed in which case i fully understand his choice

As i said, voted Labour all his life, views Militant as a massive mistake and disaster, doesn't want a repeat with Momentum. You can write him off as confused if you like but his vote counts the same as yours, as do those of his friends, who are of a similar demographic... my point is simply that it isn't just about Brexit and Corbyn but Momentum's hard left policies don't appeal to many traditional Labour voters any more either.

[Nickgnome]

stongle said:

But the country repeatedly rejects extreme parties. We live in a society that doesn't actually require revolution, or massive social upheaval- just better wealth redistribution. It seems most of the electorate got that, but some on the far left (Momentum) and right (arguably sections of BREXIT); only see their versions of the world. Which they try to project on everyone else. We don't need extreme opposition parties, just ones whom offer practical and deliverable policies - something Labour missed by a universe.

Something on which we agree at last. Must be Christmas or something.

I was listening to a labour guy, unfortunately didn’t catch his name, but he was trying to excuse the result and would not accept that Corbyn, McDonald and momentum were really the problem.

There is clearly an element of the Labour Party which is still centrist and for the good of the nation we hope they can win out.

For the record I’ve only voted labour once or twice. 1997 and possibly the subsequent one. Blair screwed up when he got all Catholic religious and obviously the Iraq war.

He didn’t appreciate how dodgy some businesses and the banks were either, which did for him in relation to PFI and the financial crash.

I was heavily involved in PFI contracts and the principle was sound. The contract execution as poor though.

[P5BNij]

At last some sense from you Nick, I wish more of your posts were like this. Sounds like the Labour guy you mention might've been Richard Burgon.

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

"Tories are dreadful far right bds"

also

"A moderate Labour Party is just the same as Tories"

Along with "the national debt has increased massively under the Tories" and "brutal austerity cuts must stop now"

[biggbn]

fblm said:

As i said, voted Labour all his life, views Militant as a massive mistake and disaster, doesn't want a repeat with Momentum. You can write him off as confused if you like but his vote counts the same as yours, as do those of his friends, who are of a similar demographic... my point is simply that it isn't just about Brexit and Corbyn but Momentum's hard left policies don't appeal to many traditional Labour voters any more either.

Thanks for this

[Munter]

fblm said:

Along with "the national debt has increased massively under the Tories" and "brutal austerity cuts must stop now"

I think the usual answer is like: <something> taxis too low <something> speedbumps environment children <something> make the rich pay to fix the taxis <something> profit solve both

[Hoofy]

snuffy said:

Hoofy said:

They need to bin the extreme left (most of the party).

What they have done is moved to the left alright. And it's not worked. So what they will do is think "ah, we know we are correct, but we just need to do it more". Hence they will move even further to the left.

You might be right. We'll soon see.

El stovey said:

Hoofy said:

They need to bin the extreme left (most of the party).

But isn’t any policy of a centrist new Labour Party going to be similar to the conservatives spending and environmental pledges?

Boris has done a Tony Blair and kept his core voters happy and taken over the middle. Plus killed off Farage,

Obviously if the conservatives spending pledges don’t materialise or they mess up brexit, then there’s a way in for new new labour but otherwise I can't see a way back for a long time.

Well, if things aren't too extreme in either direction it's for the best. Extremes never work out in the long run.

[Nickgnome]

P5BNij said:

At last some sense from you Nick, I wish more of your posts were like this. Sounds like the Labour guy you mention might've been Richard Burgon.

I think it was. There was a female labour politician on later, she was taking the same line. Ken Clarke and David Blunkett were on as well. I didn’t catch much of it but they seem to put her in her place.

[Robertj21a]

biggbn said:

otolith said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting, though, that we need a moderate Labour Party which will invade a middle Eastern country. It's about domestic policy.

I just don't see a moderate centrist party as an alternative, it's just 'another' main party, two flavours of vanilla separated by a cigarette paper

So you think a further left party will get enough votes to make a significant impact ?