Preparing hard workers for a future of tax paying...

[otolith]

Willie Dee said:

otolith said:

Willie Dee said:

Your delusional if you think wealth comes from merit or hard work in this, or many other countries.

There are plenty of wealthy people who were born into poor backgrounds and succeeded by merit and hard work. I expect it suits some people to think that they couldn't have done better if they had applied themselves, though.

Whilst I agree there are plenty of wealthy people who worked hard to get where they are, there are many times that number of people who worked just as hard, if not harder, and did no succeed. Then you have the people who worked just as hard but remain relatively poor in my eyes, such as social workers and nurses.

I think its more that it suits wealthy people to think that the only reason they are wealthy is because of their own hard work which other people simply chose not to do, resolving them of any guilt and justifying their wealth to themselves.

If people choose to pursue careers which are not particularly well paid, that is their decision. I abandoned my original career once I realised that it was never going to fund the kind of lifestyle I wanted. We aren't wealthy, certainly not by PH standards, but I suppose my wife and I both earn more than 80%-90% of people do. We're both from working class backgrounds, and we both got everything we have by working hard for it. We pay a lot of tax, ask very little from the state in return and certainly have no guilt to resolve or any need to justify anything to anyone.

All of the people I know who have done well for themselves have worked bloody hard for it - even those who came from reasonably comfortable backgrounds. Perhaps I am unlucky enough not to know the idle rich, or perhaps they are just an SWP fiction.

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

And seeing the near-poverty some people like your aforementioned social workers and nurses live in as somehow 'their fault' for choosing that line of work.

Well, isn't it?

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

Twincam16 said:

And seeing the near-poverty some people like your aforementioned social workers and nurses live in as somehow 'their fault' for choosing that line of work.

Well, isn't it?

Well the country would collapse around its ears without them. Don't they deserve a bit more money?

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

otolith said:

Twincam16 said:

And seeing the near-poverty some people like your aforementioned social workers and nurses live in as somehow 'their fault' for choosing that line of work.

Well, isn't it?

Well the country would collapse around its ears without them. Don't they deserve a bit more money?

It would appear that there are plenty of people willing and able to do the job knowing full well what it pays - why would we need to pay more?

[SystemParanoia]

what does it pay ?

[anonymous-user]

Twincam16 said:

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

It's also delusional to think that people - hard-working people too, not layabouts - will put up with living much longer in a country where the average wage doesn't buy the average house because a wealthy minority have a vested interest in keeping property prices high and the number of affordable new homes low.

The poll tax riots will be an afternoon in the park compared to the almighty ststorm on it's way over housing in this country with the population set to increase the way it is.

i think you are being overly dramatic.
54% of households are completely unmortgaged
44% are mortgaged on average 108k or about 4x average salary

Yes, currently, but what about the generation of twentysomethings stuck with their parents?

rent, save up then borrow an eyewatering amount of money like the rest of us? my point was simply that this evil 'wealthy minority' are in fact the vast majority. (as dumb as it is for everyone to want house prices higher!)

Edited by fbrs on Wednesday 4th August 19:54

[JB!]

when my parents bought their first house it was 2x their combined salary for a victorian 3 bed terrace in the late 80's.

find me somewhere sub 50k in a decent area and i'll bite your arm off for it.

[Twincam16]

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

It's also delusional to think that people - hard-working people too, not layabouts - will put up with living much longer in a country where the average wage doesn't buy the average house because a wealthy minority have a vested interest in keeping property prices high and the number of affordable new homes low.

The poll tax riots will be an afternoon in the park compared to the almighty ststorm on it's way over housing in this country with the population set to increase the way it is.

i think you are being overly dramatic.
54% of households are completely unmortgaged
44% are mortgaged on average 108k or about 4x average salary

Yes, currently, but what about the generation of twentysomethings stuck with their parents?

rent, save up then borrow an eyewatering amount of money like the rest of us? my point was simply that this evil 'wealthy minority' are in fact the vast majority.

...of current homeowners. Equity-release, a dearth of new house-building and an outbreak of ill-thought-out buy-to-letters have screwed things for people trying to get onto the property ladder for the first time, as JB!'s point illustrates. Also factor in the fact that this new generation have £15k of student debt hanging round their necks buggering up their credit rating.

[rich1231]

Willie Dee said:

rich1231 said:

Grow up you pointless turd.

Achievements should be tempered by merit, not by some sense of entitlement of fairness. Amazing that all the incredibly hard working people I know are successful isnt it. And those that moan and whine waiting for success to drop onto their laps are not.

You cocktard.

Your delusional if you think wealth comes from merit or hard work in this, or many other countries.

Delusional really?

Every person I know that has money has worked for it from nothing. Shame you would rather look to others for your failings.

[rich1231]

Twincam16 said:

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

It's also delusional to think that people - hard-working people too, not layabouts - will put up with living much longer in a country where the average wage doesn't buy the average house because a wealthy minority have a vested interest in keeping property prices high and the number of affordable new homes low.

The poll tax riots will be an afternoon in the park compared to the almighty ststorm on it's way over housing in this country with the population set to increase the way it is.

i think you are being overly dramatic.
54% of households are completely unmortgaged
44% are mortgaged on average 108k or about 4x average salary

Yes, currently, but what about the generation of twentysomethings stuck with their parents?

rent, save up then borrow an eyewatering amount of money like the rest of us? my point was simply that this evil 'wealthy minority' are in fact the vast majority.

...of current homeowners. Equity-release, a dearth of new house-building and an outbreak of ill-thought-out buy-to-letters have screwed things for people trying to get onto the property ladder for the first time, as JB!'s point illustrates. Also factor in the fact that this new generation have £15k of student debt hanging round their necks buggering up their credit rating.

You know there isnt some universal law that says a house should always be x times avergae salary. Times change. The house ownership thing has only been with us for a few short years.

You are as bad as the permy benefit scroungers, all you can do is look down on them for not trying and hate those with more because you convince yourself they are less entitled to it than you.

Everyone in the UK has the chance. If you cant afford a house it is only you that is to blame.

[Twincam16]

rich1231 said:

You are as bad as the permy benefit scroungers, all you can do is look down on them for not trying

Just like you then, although you'll also notice I pointed out the problem of the 'benefits trap', where people find themselves in a situation where working makes less financial sense than claiming, so not completely true there.

rich1231 said:

and hate those with more because you convince yourself they are less entitled to it than you.

Everyone in the UK has the chance. If you cant afford a house it is only you that is to blame.

I don't 'hate' anyone for being able to afford a house, nor do I think they're less 'entitled' to it, however, it's simple mathematics - the population is projected to boom in excess of Germany and France over the next twenty years. We don't have enough houses for everyone to live in. The housing shortage exacerbates social problems and will make the economy less productive and the streets less safe in the future unless someone builds some houses to relieve the pressure on the market.

[rich1231]

Twincam16 said:

rich1231 said:

You are as bad as the permy benefit scroungers, all you can do is look down on them for not trying

Just like you then, although you'll also notice I pointed out the problem of the 'benefits trap', where people find themselves in a situation where working makes less financial sense than claiming, so not completely true there.

rich1231 said:

and hate those with more because you convince yourself they are less entitled to it than you.

Everyone in the UK has the chance. If you cant afford a house it is only you that is to blame.

I don't 'hate' anyone for being able to afford a house, nor do I think they're less 'entitled' to it, however, it's simple mathematics - the population is projected to boom in excess of Germany and France over the next twenty years. We don't have enough houses for everyone to live in. The housing shortage exacerbates social problems and will make the economy less productive and the streets less safe in the future unless someone builds some houses to relieve the pressure on the market.

No Twinners.

I look down on those that dont try, but I envy no one. Its a useful personality trait funny enough. Anything I want I have to go out and earn. I dont try and blame society for being unfair when something is difficult.

Population pressures on property are always going to increase. You do know that dont you?

[gamefreaks]

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

It's also delusional to think that people - hard-working people too, not layabouts - will put up with living much longer in a country where the average wage doesn't buy the average house because a wealthy minority have a vested interest in keeping property prices high and the number of affordable new homes low.

The poll tax riots will be an afternoon in the park compared to the almighty ststorm on it's way over housing in this country with the population set to increase the way it is.

i think you are being overly dramatic.
54% of households are completely unmortgaged
44% are mortgaged on average 108k or about 4x average salary

1) What can you get for a £108k these days? The 44/54 gap will get a lot wider.

It will sort itself out though. House prices haven't dropped yet. When interest rates go up, house prices will drop because people will be forced to distress sell.

[fido]

So reminds me of this classic Mash take on the Grauniad.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/first%1...

[JB!]

gamefreaks said:

fbrs said:

Twincam16 said:

It's also delusional to think that people - hard-working people too, not layabouts - will put up with living much longer in a country where the average wage doesn't buy the average house because a wealthy minority have a vested interest in keeping property prices high and the number of affordable new homes low.

The poll tax riots will be an afternoon in the park compared to the almighty ststorm on it's way over housing in this country with the population set to increase the way it is.

i think you are being overly dramatic.
54% of households are completely unmortgaged
44% are mortgaged on average 108k or about 4x average salary

1) What can you get for a £108k these days? The 44/54 gap will get a lot wider.

It will sort itself out though. House prices haven't dropped yet. When interest rates go up, house prices will drop because people will be forced to distress sell.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=REGION^940&insId=1&radius=0.0&displayPropertyType=&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=&minPrice=&maxPrice=110000&retirement=&partBuyPartRent=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&_includeSSTC=on&x=62&y=13&sortByPriceDescending=&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&newHome=&auction=false

hope that link works.


thats what 110k buys in MK.

[heebeegeetee]

Poledriver said:

heebeegeetee said:

the tories started closing all the factories and mines down, and moved the nations wealth earning capacity to the square mile

So how did the government close down privately owned businesses?
Most of the businesses (public and private)were closed down by the lazy fecking 'work' force who went on strike to get more money for sitting around on their arses doing nothing! Shot themselves in the foot when productivity remained the same while they were on strike!

Hmm. I was trucking around europe in the 1980's seeing how people work in different european nations, and i can tell you that we were the hardest working body of people then as we are now, working stupid hours back then as we still do today.

I will agree though that then, just like now, life and work was still chaotic, and whilst we're hard working we're under-productive, thanks to poor management and established practices.

otolith said:

It would appear that there are plenty of people willing and able to do the job knowing full well what it pays - why would we need to pay more?

Hold on - is this thread about the fact that we've got plenty of people in work, or plenty of people on benefits? Fact is, the 'plenty of people' include large numbers of people from abroad, while you have to fund the benefits of those from here who won't work for those wages - a situation i presume you're not happy about.

fbrs said:

rent, save up then borrow an eyewatering amount of money like the rest of us?

We never had to borrow eye watering amounts.

In the mid 1950's, after my father in law had paid his mortgage he still had nine tenths of his salary left and they hadn't touched his wife's money.

I can't recall now how many times our joint salary we had to borrow to fund our first home which we bought in @1982, but i do know it was nowhere near four times. I'm guessing we paid half that, possibly less.

We didn't even need to sell that property to fund our next home, and we still own the first and rent it out. We haven't had kids mind, if we had we obviously wouldn't have kept that first property but we still wouldn't have needed to borrow eye-watering amounts. (I guess its all about perception though, because my mother in law certainly did think that their mortgage was very expensive - it being all of 1/10th of her husbands monthly take-home pay. )

However, i'm told that the first time buyers of today now need the purchase price of our first home just for a deposit.

Back in 1989 a Mazda MX5 cost £14,000. Now they cost what, £18-£20,000, so they've gone up by a third roughly? Whereas our first homes has increased in value by 7-8 times since '82. It's totally unsustainable, as I'm sure we're all aware. (Or not, perhaps.)

Whilst agreeing it's not right, i feel i can understand why people choose not to work if they feel it won't get them anywhere, and won't even allow them to buy a modest home.

And maybe Twincam has a point - if you buy foreign goods, you forfeit the right to complain about the amount of tax you have to pay to support the unemployed.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 4th August 23:38

[JB!]

heebeegeetee said:

Back in 1989 a Mazda MX5 cost £14,000. Now they cost what, £18-£20,000, so they've gone up by a third roughly? Whereas our first homes has increased in value by 7-8 times since '82. It's totally unsustainable, as I'm sure we're all aware. (Or not, perhaps.)

Whilst agreeing it's not right, i feel i can understand why people choose not to work if they feel it won't get them anywhere, and won't even allow them to buy a modest home.

And maybe Twincam has a point - if you buy foreign goods, you forfeit the right to complain about the amount of tax you have to pay to support the unemployed.

1st point - spot on. wages HAVE increased dramatically, what i was taking home as a 2nd year apprentice in 2008 was my dads full time salary in 1986.

he bought a house IN THIS STREET ( http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope... ) for £23,000.

now look.

prices have not doubled, tripled or quadroupled... its almost an 800% increase in value!

[otolith]

heebeegeetee said:

otolith said:

It would appear that there are plenty of people willing and able to do the job knowing full well what it pays - why would we need to pay more?

Hold on - is this thread about the fact that we've got plenty of people in work, or plenty of people on benefits? Fact is, the 'plenty of people' include large numbers of people from abroad, while you have to fund the benefits of those from here who won't work for those wages - a situation i presume you're not happy about.

That's a different matter - wages in my own industry are depressed by firms shipping in staff from India and shipping work out there - what are you going to do?

If you can fill the places from the workforce you have, though, why would you pay more?

Edit to add - and the people who won't get off their arses for minimum wage aren't looking at 20-30k social worker positions.

Edited by otolith on Thursday 5th August 00:10

[OwenK]

With regards to housing prices, I'm currently at the bottom of the ladder so maybe I can give a semi-interesting perspective. I'm a Uni student, about to finish and get out into the workplace, but unlike most students I am married with children. So also unlike most students, I can't go and live with mum and dad for the first few years, or rent a room in a house with other similar people - I need to have a place for my family to live.

It is an unbelievably daunting prospect to get onto the housing market. I have the feeling that, as a new graduate, and with the work availability at the moment, I will struggle to find work that pays any more than say £25k. When you consider that that's about the value of the average house deposit, and that that 25k is about what we'd need to live on for a year without much to put away, how will I ever save up enough for the deposit? Take out a massive loan, to add to the pile with my student loan, and the impending mortgage for the actual house itself? I'd have no choice but to continue living in the house we live in now, which to my ongoing shame, is rented and paid for via housing benefit. Except that if I do manage to earn £25k, our housing benefit will almost entirely stop - putting us back to square one again.

We already live in a tiny place as it is - my boys' bedroom is barely big enough to fit their cots in - so downsizing isn't really much of an option; and as mentioned previously the finances don't really add up unless I am lucky enough to find work that pays better than that. Unfortunately even within my University course there are more capable, better experienced people than me who have even struggled to find work; and so you see how people can fall into the trap. Obviously my situation is unusual but financially I don't think it varies that much. When you consider that I will be a university graduate, educated and prepared to the highest standard I can achieve under my own steam in this country, and I still don't know how we would support ourselves, what hope is there for those less fortunate?


For what it's worth, hideous though it may sound, we've caught a lucky break financially in that my wife's father recently passed away - leaving her among other things his flat, which we can use to get ourselves a leg up onto the property ladder.

[rich1231]

OwenK said:

With regards to housing prices, I'm currently at the bottom of the ladder so maybe I can give a semi-interesting perspective. I'm a Uni student, about to finish and get out into the workplace, but unlike most students I am married with children. So also unlike most students, I can't go and live with mum and dad for the first few years, or rent a room in a house with other similar people - I need to have a place for my family to live.

It is an unbelievably daunting prospect to get onto the housing market. I have the feeling that, as a new graduate, and with the work availability at the moment, I will struggle to find work that pays any more than say £25k. When you consider that that's about the value of the average house deposit, and that that 25k is about what we'd need to live on for a year without much to put away, how will I ever save up enough for the deposit? Take out a massive loan, to add to the pile with my student loan, and the impending mortgage for the actual house itself? I'd have no choice but to continue living in the house we live in now, which to my ongoing shame, is rented and paid for via housing benefit. Except that if I do manage to earn £25k, our housing benefit will almost entirely stop - putting us back to square one again.

We already live in a tiny place as it is - my boys' bedroom is barely big enough to fit their cots in - so downsizing isn't really much of an option; and as mentioned previously the finances don't really add up unless I am lucky enough to find work that pays better than that. Unfortunately even within my University course there are more capable, better experienced people than me who have even struggled to find work; and so you see how people can fall into the trap. Obviously my situation is unusual but financially I don't think it varies that much. When you consider that I will be a university graduate, educated and prepared to the highest standard I can achieve under my own steam in this country, and I still don't know how we would support ourselves, what hope is there for those less fortunate?


For what it's worth, hideous though it may sound, we've caught a lucky break financially in that my wife's father recently passed away - leaving her among other things his flat, which we can use to get ourselves a leg up onto the property ladder.

Perhaps people need to accept that they cannot expect to own their own property the moment they leave education. That would be a start. This feeling of entitlement is not just a problem for scroungers but students seem to have it too.