45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. Vol 3
Discussion
ferrisbueller said:
Trump was elected. Given that fact, which of his actions do you think alienate the people who put him in power? From his camp's perspective, that's all that matters. It was clear what he was, he was still elected. All he has to do is maintain his majority.
But was it really clear what he was at the time the votes were cast? I mean, yes, it was clear he was a bit of a loose cannon and far from being a conventional candidate, but how many of the people who knew all of that and still decided he was the best (or at least, the least worst) choice, would similarly have made that decision if they'd known back then that his behaviour over the last year would have been so unpresidential and so damaging to the US's reputation across the globe?Let's not forget that many people voted for him not because they were pro-Trump, but simply because they were sufficiently anti-Clinton that the prospect of 4 years of Trump at the helm felt like the safer choice. I wonder how many of those voters, having now seen exactly how utterly incapable he is of doing the job, are now thinking that Clinton really wouldn't have been such a bad choice after all...
I get why some people would have voted for him out of genuine appreciation for his policies, people disenfranchised with the existing government, who felt their voices were being ignored by the Washington elite. And if he'd spent the last year working on implementing those policies in a professional, responsible, grown-up way, then things right now would be quite different. But acting as he's done over the last year, constantly firing off ill thought out tweets, making off the cuff remarks without engaging brain first, and making the non-Trump-supporting world (including, remember, at least half the population of the USA itself) wondering just WTF he's going to do or say next... the only thing which amazes me now is how so many people continue to be surprised at how little respect he's given by so so many other people.
twister said:
But was it really clear what he was at the time the votes were cast? I mean, yes, it was clear he was a bit of a loose cannon and far from being a conventional candidate, but how many of the people who knew all of that and still decided he was the best (or at least, the least worst) choice, would similarly have made that decision if they'd known back then that his behaviour over the last year would have been so unpresidential and so damaging to the US's reputation across the globe?
Let's not forget that many people voted for him not because they were pro-Trump, but simply because they were sufficiently anti-Clinton that the prospect of 4 years of Trump at the helm felt like the safer choice. I wonder how many of those voters, having now seen exactly how utterly incapable he is of doing the job, are now thinking that Clinton really wouldn't have been such a bad choice after all...
I get why some people would have voted for him out of genuine appreciation for his policies, people disenfranchised with the existing government, who felt their voices were being ignored by the Washington elite. And if he'd spent the last year working on implementing those policies in a professional, responsible, grown-up way, then things right now would be quite different. But acting as he's done over the last year, constantly firing off ill thought out tweets, making off the cuff remarks without engaging brain first, and making the non-Trump-supporting world (including, remember, at least half the population of the USA itself) wondering just WTF he's going to do or say next... the only thing which amazes me now is how so many people continue to be surprised at how little respect he's given by so so many other people.
Personally i think the USA was not ready for a black presidentLet's not forget that many people voted for him not because they were pro-Trump, but simply because they were sufficiently anti-Clinton that the prospect of 4 years of Trump at the helm felt like the safer choice. I wonder how many of those voters, having now seen exactly how utterly incapable he is of doing the job, are now thinking that Clinton really wouldn't have been such a bad choice after all...
I get why some people would have voted for him out of genuine appreciation for his policies, people disenfranchised with the existing government, who felt their voices were being ignored by the Washington elite. And if he'd spent the last year working on implementing those policies in a professional, responsible, grown-up way, then things right now would be quite different. But acting as he's done over the last year, constantly firing off ill thought out tweets, making off the cuff remarks without engaging brain first, and making the non-Trump-supporting world (including, remember, at least half the population of the USA itself) wondering just WTF he's going to do or say next... the only thing which amazes me now is how so many people continue to be surprised at how little respect he's given by so so many other people.
twister said:
ferrisbueller said:
Trump was elected. Given that fact, which of his actions do you think alienate the people who put him in power? From his camp's perspective, that's all that matters. It was clear what he was, he was still elected. All he has to do is maintain his majority.
But was it really clear what he was at the time the votes were cast? 
Russian Troll Bot said:
From the person who said they'd chain themselves to the gates of Downing Street if Trump visited
I guess protests are only ok when they fit your ideology
Apparently it was a group called the “White Pendragons” who were protesting against Sadiq Khan. They’ve been labelled as “Far Right” by the internet but people can make up their own minds by looking at some of the videos they’ve posted on YouTube.I guess protests are only ok when they fit your ideology
Countdown said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
From the person who said they'd chain themselves to the gates of Downing Street if Trump visited
I guess protests are only ok when they fit your ideology
Apparently it was a group called the “White Pendragons” who were protesting against Sadiq Khan. They’ve been labelled as “Far Right” by the internet but people can make up their own minds by looking at some of the videos they’ve posted on YouTube.I guess protests are only ok when they fit your ideology
Russian Troll Bot said:
That label has pretty much lost all meaning now. Could be that they really are, but seeing the double standard is amusing.
Why do you say it’s lost all meaning? Can you give an example of where it’s been used incorrectly?IMO it’s generally people holding Far right views who consider themselves “centrist” or “centre right” that tend to get upset with the label.
Ps no double standard as far as I can see. Lammy hasn’t suggested they’re not entitled to protest, simply that he doesn’t agree with their point of view
Edited by Countdown on Saturday 13th January 17:37
Countdown said:
Mothersruin said:
You're average knitting circle is a Far Right gathering by today's standards.
As I said to RTB, do you have any examples? Or is it just a case of the truth hurting?When was that last seen?
It's all b
ks, points scoring, undermining, fake news, real fake news, fake real news, death by snapchat, policy by twitter.This from all sides.
Mothersruin said:
Countdown said:
Mothersruin said:
You're average knitting circle is a Far Right gathering by today's standards.
As I said to RTB, do you have any examples? Or is it just a case of the truth hurting?ks, points scoring, undermining, fake news, real fake news, fake real news, death by snapchat, policy by twitter.No, I have no examples. Just meaningless soundbites.
Greg66 said:
Mothersruin said:
Countdown said:
Mothersruin said:
You're average knitting circle is a Far Right gathering by today's standards.
As I said to RTB, do you have any examples? Or is it just a case of the truth hurting?ks, points scoring, undermining, fake news, real fake news, fake real news, death by snapchat, policy by twitter.No, I have no examples. Just meaningless soundbites.
https://theyarnmission.com/support/
The existence of this fun chapter means they consider your average Knitting Circle a hotbed of racism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42677726/...
These nutters obviously don't support the will of the people that elected a mayor, nor do they believe in free speech.
I bet they like politicians that "annoy lefties" though!
These nutters obviously don't support the will of the people that elected a mayor, nor do they believe in free speech.
I bet they like politicians that "annoy lefties" though!
Countdown said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
That label has pretty much lost all meaning now. Could be that they really are, but seeing the double standard is amusing.
Why do you say it’s lost all meaning? Can you give an example of where it’s been used incorrectly?IMO it’s generally people holding Far right views who consider themselves “centrist” or “centre right” that tend to get upset with the label.
Ps no double standard as far as I can see. Lammy hasn’t suggested they’re not entitled to protest, simply that he doesn’t agree with their point of view
Edited by Countdown on Saturday 13th January 17:37
I don't agree with disrupting someone's event or no-platforming, since even when peaceful it is an attempt to shut down free speech. But you can't call on the public to disrupt the visit of someone you don't like, then get angry when it happens to your mate.
4 Month countdown to torpedo Iran deal: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/12/ir...
This has the potential to be a pivotal moment in world history, one that I don't think many people understand. The euro was designed to be an alternative to the dollar as a reserve currency but this can't happen unless America screws the pooch, something they seem to have been doing with gay abandon ever since the invasion of Iraq. Trump seems to be poised to give the unfortunate pooch another screwing.
Americans have long been renowned for high levels of consumption and debt, something that's paid for via America's position as the global currency printing press plus the depth and flexibility of American capital markets. Any country, company or individual wanting to hold a stock of dollars has to acquire those dollars from America and often those dollars will return to American banks as savings and investments, which in turn makes credit cheaper and easier to obtain for Americans.
The long and short of this financial chicanery is that Americans have become accustomed to being able to consume more goods and services than they produce. Sure this turns up as some scary looking debt figures but the interest on that debt is largely being paid back in to the American economy, so the debt doesn't matter because those interest payments are turning up as pensions, insurance payouts, etc. Debt only becomes a problem when your debt is owned by foreigners and therefore interest is being paid out of your economy instead of in to it.
Without understanding debt you can have no real understanding of geopolitics or the Iran deal, because only once you understand that Iran is the spearhead of China and Russia's attempts to destroy American financial dominance does the picture become clear. As I understand it the plan works something like this:
- Russia and China support Iran militarily and in return Iran keeps pushing for oil to be sold using a basket of currencies that includes a large portion of euros as well as a percentage of roubles and yuan.
- If the eurozone can be enticed in to supporting Iran then it opens the door for the financial and consumption advantages of reserve currency status to be removed from America and instead start accruing to the EU, China and Russia.
- This creates a major financial incentive for eurozone powers like France and Germany to support Iran because if the wider Persian area (Iraq, Syria, etc) can in the future switch oil to a basket system instead of a dollar system it means countries must start stocking euros instead of dollars if they want to buy oil.
- The time scale for this project will presumably be in line with the rise of the AIIB, China's rival to Bretton Woods
- China is already trying to reduce other countries reliance on the dollar wherever it can, eg, Pakistan.
We saw this plan in action during the invasion of Iraq. Saddam decided to sell his oil in euros and, knowing this would shift the global balance of power from America to France and Germany, he engineered a situation where America was diplomatically isolated from the EU and blabbering about freedom fries. It didn't quite work out for Saddam or China/Russia but as a proof of principle it showed that the plan could work.
Since then Iran has been working hard to engage with the EU and you'll note that when sanctions were lifted Iranian diplomats were far more interested in Paris and Berlin than Washington or London, the result of which is the Total deal and Macron publicly warning America not to exploit the recent Iranian protests for geopolitical gains.
As we enter a phase where Trump wishes to renegotiate the Iran deal it will be extremely interesting to see the French position because France seem to be holding a lot more cards than America. Should France and Germany refuse to agree to American changes then America appear to have only two options, capitulate and continue with the deal as it is, or withdraw from the deal in splendid isolation while the world shrugs its shoulders and continues without them.
If Trump's ham fisted diplomacy forces France and the EU in to a diplomatic alliance with Iran it will open the door for the EU to start challenging American financial hegemony. France has already proved it's willing to go to war and cause a migrant crisis in order to protect europe's financial dominance in north Africa so I have no doubt that if there is an opportunity to increase the use of the euro as a reserve currency they will take it.
Like the Iraq war the Iran deal pits EU and American interests directly against each other. For sensible adults this shouldn't create too many problems beyond maybe an escalation of the tit for tat fines the EU and America have been placing on each other's companies (Google, VW, etc). For Putin however it represents an opportunity to drive a wedge between NATO countries and for China it is an interesting development in their global economic game of 'slowly slowly catchy monkey'.
Given that we in the UK are geographically located between the EU and America and our currency strongly related to the fortunes of both continents I do hope we've got a competent foreign secretary who can help guide us through this situation... Oh fk.
This has the potential to be a pivotal moment in world history, one that I don't think many people understand. The euro was designed to be an alternative to the dollar as a reserve currency but this can't happen unless America screws the pooch, something they seem to have been doing with gay abandon ever since the invasion of Iraq. Trump seems to be poised to give the unfortunate pooch another screwing.
Americans have long been renowned for high levels of consumption and debt, something that's paid for via America's position as the global currency printing press plus the depth and flexibility of American capital markets. Any country, company or individual wanting to hold a stock of dollars has to acquire those dollars from America and often those dollars will return to American banks as savings and investments, which in turn makes credit cheaper and easier to obtain for Americans.
The long and short of this financial chicanery is that Americans have become accustomed to being able to consume more goods and services than they produce. Sure this turns up as some scary looking debt figures but the interest on that debt is largely being paid back in to the American economy, so the debt doesn't matter because those interest payments are turning up as pensions, insurance payouts, etc. Debt only becomes a problem when your debt is owned by foreigners and therefore interest is being paid out of your economy instead of in to it.
Without understanding debt you can have no real understanding of geopolitics or the Iran deal, because only once you understand that Iran is the spearhead of China and Russia's attempts to destroy American financial dominance does the picture become clear. As I understand it the plan works something like this:
- Russia and China support Iran militarily and in return Iran keeps pushing for oil to be sold using a basket of currencies that includes a large portion of euros as well as a percentage of roubles and yuan.
- If the eurozone can be enticed in to supporting Iran then it opens the door for the financial and consumption advantages of reserve currency status to be removed from America and instead start accruing to the EU, China and Russia.
- This creates a major financial incentive for eurozone powers like France and Germany to support Iran because if the wider Persian area (Iraq, Syria, etc) can in the future switch oil to a basket system instead of a dollar system it means countries must start stocking euros instead of dollars if they want to buy oil.
- The time scale for this project will presumably be in line with the rise of the AIIB, China's rival to Bretton Woods
- China is already trying to reduce other countries reliance on the dollar wherever it can, eg, Pakistan.
We saw this plan in action during the invasion of Iraq. Saddam decided to sell his oil in euros and, knowing this would shift the global balance of power from America to France and Germany, he engineered a situation where America was diplomatically isolated from the EU and blabbering about freedom fries. It didn't quite work out for Saddam or China/Russia but as a proof of principle it showed that the plan could work.
Since then Iran has been working hard to engage with the EU and you'll note that when sanctions were lifted Iranian diplomats were far more interested in Paris and Berlin than Washington or London, the result of which is the Total deal and Macron publicly warning America not to exploit the recent Iranian protests for geopolitical gains.
As we enter a phase where Trump wishes to renegotiate the Iran deal it will be extremely interesting to see the French position because France seem to be holding a lot more cards than America. Should France and Germany refuse to agree to American changes then America appear to have only two options, capitulate and continue with the deal as it is, or withdraw from the deal in splendid isolation while the world shrugs its shoulders and continues without them.
If Trump's ham fisted diplomacy forces France and the EU in to a diplomatic alliance with Iran it will open the door for the EU to start challenging American financial hegemony. France has already proved it's willing to go to war and cause a migrant crisis in order to protect europe's financial dominance in north Africa so I have no doubt that if there is an opportunity to increase the use of the euro as a reserve currency they will take it.
Like the Iraq war the Iran deal pits EU and American interests directly against each other. For sensible adults this shouldn't create too many problems beyond maybe an escalation of the tit for tat fines the EU and America have been placing on each other's companies (Google, VW, etc). For Putin however it represents an opportunity to drive a wedge between NATO countries and for China it is an interesting development in their global economic game of 'slowly slowly catchy monkey'.
Given that we in the UK are geographically located between the EU and America and our currency strongly related to the fortunes of both continents I do hope we've got a competent foreign secretary who can help guide us through this situation... Oh f
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