Muslim protests in UK
Discussion
968 said:
The problem is that the Sun/DM will never print positive stories about these groups as it does not suit their agenda. Their agenda is to instill fear and hatred and misrepresentation. Look at the sum they choose to employ as their editors, ie Kelvin McKenzie, Rebekah Brooks etc, do you think they give a toss about being even handed and fair, as opposed to selling more papes? Running a media campaign like this requires a lot of money, and these organisations do not have the kind of money that is required to successfully change media portrayal.
Great post, and I quite agree. Mind you, they'd look like the bunch of c*nts they are the next time MI5 needs a bit of positive PR from arresting some no-mark.kuzushi said:
At the very least I think we can say he ordered the beheading of hundreds of Jews in Medina. It's not unreasonable to say that someone who orders the death of hundreds of men and boys has blood on their hands, surely?
Many hundreds of years afterwards what did we do after the Indian Mutiny?Countdown said:
Oh yes, I've definitely heard of it before. Something that happened several hundred years ago. But you suggested earlier that it was happening at the moment and it was a sign that islam wanted to take over the world.
Well, jizya might be happening now in some places, but the point I was trying to make earlier, in reference to a comment about Andalucia, was that it was not necessary for islam to massacre all non-believers to dominate the world. If you impose jizya and dhimmitude on subjugated peoples then that's enough to dominate them. You don't need to kill them to dominate them. Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
kuzushi said:
Well, jizya might be happening now in some places, but the point I was trying to make earlier, in reference to a comment about Andalucia, was that it was not necessary for islam to massacre all non-believers to dominate the world. If you impose jizya and dhimmitude on subjugated peoples then that's enough to dominate them. You don't need to kill them to dominate them.
Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
So basically you have no examples of this happening anywhere in the world, but you just say it might be happening now. You then refer to something that occurred around 6-800 years ago as evidence of a current plan of world domination. Each post is more nonsensical than the next.Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
968 said:
kuzushi said:
You could answer a few specific questions, if you would be so kind. For example,
1. do you believe you will go to paradise or hell when you die?
2. will all non-muslims go to hell?
3. what do you envisage paradise to be like? will you have 72 houris, or is that a misrepresentation of the religion?
4. does evolution contradict your faith?
Why is it that islam is particularly afflicted with extremist lunatics?
As I've said to you before, my beliefs are irrelevant in this discussion, but I can see where your line of questioning is going. In answer to each, 1. I don't know where I'll go. If such places exist, it won't be upto me or what I believe that determines where I go. 2. No, of course not. 3. I have no idea. I'm sure that each individual has their own interpretation as such. You're feeble attempt to bring in 72 virgins etc is more nonsense and is a complete misrepresentation, but I suspect you know that. 4. No it doesn't, I'm a man of science and that is not mutually exclusive to Muslims, go and google Avicenna. And Islam is not unique in terms of association with extremists, in case you've not noticed, Anders Breivik was not a Muslim. 1. do you believe you will go to paradise or hell when you die?
2. will all non-muslims go to hell?
3. what do you envisage paradise to be like? will you have 72 houris, or is that a misrepresentation of the religion?
4. does evolution contradict your faith?
Why is it that islam is particularly afflicted with extremist lunatics?
You seem very defensive, you say "I can see where your line of questioning is going" and "your feeble attempt...72 virgins...nonsense", making assumptions, but you understand I am not a muslim, I am sceptical of islam, and so I am going to ask awkward/critical questions. But I am also interested to learn more about muslims and islam. I see islam and muslims as two distinct but connected things, actually. Re Anders Breivik, note that on this very thread that while I think islam has a bit of a problem with terrorism/intimidation, I have stated that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism.
1. You say "if such places exist". Hmm. I thought believing in heaven and hell was a key part of being a muslim. It won't be up to you or what you believe that determines where you'll go? That also surprises me somewhat.
2. I thought that islam taught that unbelievers would go to hell. I'm sure I've read suras to that effect, but you strongly reject that view.
3. Why can't I bring in the 72 virgins? Isn't it part of islamic teaching?
4. Okay, I'll have a look at Avicenna.
A new question:
5. What about the "Martyrs go straight to paradise" tenet of islam? Doesn't that contradict your answer to question 1? I mean, if you go and become a martyr then according to islam you can be guaranteed a fast-track straight to paradise. I've been led to believe this is why suicide bombers are so prevalent in islam.
kuzushi said:
Thank you for answering my questions. I do appreciate that.
You seem very defensive, you say "I can see where your line of questioning is going" and "your feeble attempt...72 virgins...nonsense", making assumptions, but you understand I am not a muslim, I am sceptical of islam, and so I am going to ask awkward/critical questions. But I am also interested to learn more about muslims and islam. I see islam and muslims as two distinct but connected things, actually. Re Anders Breivik, note that on this very thread that while I think islam has a bit of a problem with terrorism/intimidation, I have stated that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism.
1. You say "if such places exist". Hmm. I thought believing in heaven and hell was a key part of being a muslim. It won't be up to you or what you believe that determines where you'll go? That also surprises me somewhat.
2. I thought that islam taught that unbelievers would go to hell. I'm sure I've read suras to that effect, but you strongly reject that view.
3. Why can't I bring in the 72 virgins? Isn't it part of islamic teaching?
4. Okay, I'll have a look at Avicenna.
A new question:
5. What about the "Martyrs go straight to paradise" tenet of islam? Doesn't that contradict your answer to question 1? I mean, if you go and become a martyr then according to islam you can be guaranteed a fast-track straight to paradise. I've been led to believe this is why suicide bombers are so prevalent in islam.
My beliefs are my beliefs and I really don't know whether heaven or hell exist. Being brought up as a Muslim doesn't mean that one has an absolute belief in every aspect of it, indeed there is much questioning that should be done and is encouraged, even in the language of the Koran. Unbelievers does not mean all non-muslims. You conveniently forget that Islam is an Abrahamic religion and shares a great deal with the other traditions, it's your interpretation that suggests they will go to hell. Indeed believers means what, exactly? 72 virgins is an interpretation of a passage, others have interpreted it as 72 raisins. Quite different. What is a martyr, and what is paradise? Is paradise simply being eternally venerated through history by all that remember you? Or is it the actual state of ecstasy that is suggested by Abrahamic religions? Who knows. What is martyrdom? I'd suggest is isn't killing oneself in a violent and murderous action, but doing the right and just thing by all people, even if it costs your life. You seem very defensive, you say "I can see where your line of questioning is going" and "your feeble attempt...72 virgins...nonsense", making assumptions, but you understand I am not a muslim, I am sceptical of islam, and so I am going to ask awkward/critical questions. But I am also interested to learn more about muslims and islam. I see islam and muslims as two distinct but connected things, actually. Re Anders Breivik, note that on this very thread that while I think islam has a bit of a problem with terrorism/intimidation, I have stated that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism.
1. You say "if such places exist". Hmm. I thought believing in heaven and hell was a key part of being a muslim. It won't be up to you or what you believe that determines where you'll go? That also surprises me somewhat.
2. I thought that islam taught that unbelievers would go to hell. I'm sure I've read suras to that effect, but you strongly reject that view.
3. Why can't I bring in the 72 virgins? Isn't it part of islamic teaching?
4. Okay, I'll have a look at Avicenna.
A new question:
5. What about the "Martyrs go straight to paradise" tenet of islam? Doesn't that contradict your answer to question 1? I mean, if you go and become a martyr then according to islam you can be guaranteed a fast-track straight to paradise. I've been led to believe this is why suicide bombers are so prevalent in islam.
Some people might see such issues more clearly, but for me, there are questions about each word you suggest. As I say, people have their own beliefs and understanding of the world around them, hence my beliefs may not be the same as Countdowns, for example, but this should make it clear to you that each Muslim is an individual, not some lunatic member of a cult designed to kill, murder and dominate.
968 said:
kuzushi said:
Well, jizya might be happening now in some places, but the point I was trying to make earlier, in reference to a comment about Andalucia, was that it was not necessary for islam to massacre all non-believers to dominate the world. If you impose jizya and dhimmitude on subjugated peoples then that's enough to dominate them. You don't need to kill them to dominate them.
Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
So basically you have no examples of this happening anywhere in the world, but you just say it might be happening now. You then refer to something that occurred around 6-800 years ago as evidence of a current plan of world domination. Each post is more nonsensical than the next.Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
I'm asking because I don't know. Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
Murph7355 said:
Tunku said:
I agree with Mermaid.
I was born and bred in the Far East. I don't like being near someone dressed like a Star Wars assassin, not only are they completely anonymous, they look sinister and god knows what they are hiding under all that cloth.
On the other hand, my mother used to wear a headscarf out East when driving her Triumph Herald convertible. No religious reason, just kept her hair out of her face.
To be perfectly honest I find other modes of dress far more "threatening". If I were predisposed to judging someone by what they wear, I think I'd far rather stand next to someone dressed in that sort of garb than, say, someone dressed like a stereotypical skinhead.I was born and bred in the Far East. I don't like being near someone dressed like a Star Wars assassin, not only are they completely anonymous, they look sinister and god knows what they are hiding under all that cloth.
On the other hand, my mother used to wear a headscarf out East when driving her Triumph Herald convertible. No religious reason, just kept her hair out of her face.
The attire isn't a problem IMO. If a particular religion/cult/group started to try and dictate how everyone else lives without following due process, then the line is crossed. Otherwise, live and let live.
eta I do have some sympathy with the view that immigrants should look to be more aware of our underlying culture and should aim to integrate more. Though talk of warrior cultures and Star Wars assassins does smack of over fertile imaginations and too much time spent in Games Workshop...
Edited by Murph7355 on Wednesday 10th October 08:08
968 said:
kuzushi said:
Thank you for answering my questions. I do appreciate that.
You seem very defensive, you say "I can see where your line of questioning is going" and "your feeble attempt...72 virgins...nonsense", making assumptions, but you understand I am not a muslim, I am sceptical of islam, and so I am going to ask awkward/critical questions. But I am also interested to learn more about muslims and islam. I see islam and muslims as two distinct but connected things, actually. Re Anders Breivik, note that on this very thread that while I think islam has a bit of a problem with terrorism/intimidation, I have stated that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism.
1. You say "if such places exist". Hmm. I thought believing in heaven and hell was a key part of being a muslim. It won't be up to you or what you believe that determines where you'll go? That also surprises me somewhat.
2. I thought that islam taught that unbelievers would go to hell. I'm sure I've read suras to that effect, but you strongly reject that view.
3. Why can't I bring in the 72 virgins? Isn't it part of islamic teaching?
4. Okay, I'll have a look at Avicenna.
A new question:
5. What about the "Martyrs go straight to paradise" tenet of islam? Doesn't that contradict your answer to question 1? I mean, if you go and become a martyr then according to islam you can be guaranteed a fast-track straight to paradise. I've been led to believe this is why suicide bombers are so prevalent in islam.
My beliefs are my beliefs and I really don't know whether heaven or hell exist. Being brought up as a Muslim doesn't mean that one has an absolute belief in every aspect of it, indeed there is much questioning that should be done and is encouraged, even in the language of the Koran. Unbelievers does not mean all non-muslims. You conveniently forget that Islam is an Abrahamic religion and shares a great deal with the other traditions, it's your interpretation that suggests they will go to hell. Indeed believers means what, exactly? 72 virgins is an interpretation of a passage, others have interpreted it as 72 raisins. Quite different. What is a martyr, and what is paradise? Is paradise simply being eternally venerated through history by all that remember you? Or is it the actual state of ecstasy that is suggested by Abrahamic religions? Who knows. What is martyrdom? I'd suggest is isn't killing oneself in a violent and murderous action, but doing the right and just thing by all people, even if it costs your life. You seem very defensive, you say "I can see where your line of questioning is going" and "your feeble attempt...72 virgins...nonsense", making assumptions, but you understand I am not a muslim, I am sceptical of islam, and so I am going to ask awkward/critical questions. But I am also interested to learn more about muslims and islam. I see islam and muslims as two distinct but connected things, actually. Re Anders Breivik, note that on this very thread that while I think islam has a bit of a problem with terrorism/intimidation, I have stated that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism.
1. You say "if such places exist". Hmm. I thought believing in heaven and hell was a key part of being a muslim. It won't be up to you or what you believe that determines where you'll go? That also surprises me somewhat.
2. I thought that islam taught that unbelievers would go to hell. I'm sure I've read suras to that effect, but you strongly reject that view.
3. Why can't I bring in the 72 virgins? Isn't it part of islamic teaching?
4. Okay, I'll have a look at Avicenna.
A new question:
5. What about the "Martyrs go straight to paradise" tenet of islam? Doesn't that contradict your answer to question 1? I mean, if you go and become a martyr then according to islam you can be guaranteed a fast-track straight to paradise. I've been led to believe this is why suicide bombers are so prevalent in islam.
Some people might see such issues more clearly, but for me, there are questions about each word you suggest. As I say, people have their own beliefs and understanding of the world around them, hence my beliefs may not be the same as Countdowns, for example, but this should make it clear to you that each Muslim is an individual, not some lunatic member of a cult designed to kill, murder and dominate.
kuzushi said:
Well, jizya might be happening now in some places,
Is it happening or isn't it happening? You're suggesting it's a cornerstone of the Islamic policy to subjugate the world but can't give an example of this policy being applied anywhere. Even in places such as Saudi Arabia with its fundamentalist islamic beliefs and a huge expat community I've not heard of this policy being appliedkuzushi said:
Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
and you think there's a master plan somewhere which has predetermined population movements and birth rates ? 
kuzushi said:
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
the first time I heard of either of those two phrases was on the BNP website. I've never been taught it, or seen it practised anywhere in the world. I genuinely am not sure why these two words scare you so much.essexplumber said:
kuzushi said:
essexplumber said:
No he didn't. He didn't because he does not exsist!
You don't think Muhammad existed?Either way, they did exist and were real, the history of the religious side of things that apparently happened at the time has been convoluted, exaggerated and changed in the hundreds of years since either walked around and the legends have grown out of some good story telling and probably decent social engineering skills that both men must've had IMO. Their existence as real people isn't in question, whether they were holy or whatever you want to call it, is another matter entirely. Muslims don't worship mohammed, they worshop allah. Or at least that's the idea, mohammed was just a bloke who said he'd talked to allah. If you say anything bad about mohammed then people get offended, but mohammed isn't the god himself, just a bloke who said he was hip with gods jive and who for whatever reason god decided to tell him some stuff.
I have never really understood exactly why people get offended at people saying stuff about someone who said he has talked to god. David Icke said he talked to god and got slammed by the media with noone getting offended, he was just written off as a nutter. But back then you could tell people you talked to god and people would believe you.
Anyway just saying that mohammed never existed is daft as he was a person, saying that you don't believe god exists or existed is something else entirely.
kuzushi said:
We have a lot of Egyptian Christian refugees in our town and one of them said something about it. I've read something about it going on in parts of Taliban controlled Pakistan.
What a delightfull place. Must take a city break in that part of Pakistan sometime. Sounds really friendly.Cobnapint said:
What a delightfull place. Must take a city break in that part of Pakistan sometime. Sounds really friendly.
It doesn't occur in the North West Frontier province where the Taliban exist in numbers. It's sad that the situation has changed in that part of the country as it was a geographically beautiful area with mountains, rivers and valleys. The people there used to be very friendly and welcoming, but now, with the war it's become a very dangerous place. I visited there some years ago (in the early 90s) and was really impressed by the place and the people.968 said:
It doesn't occur in the North West Frontier province where the Taliban exist in numbers. It's sad that the situation has changed in that part of the country as it was a geographically beautiful area with mountains, rivers and valleys. The people there used to be very friendly and welcoming, but now, with the war it's become a very dangerous place. I visited there some years ago (in the early 90s) and was really impressed by the place and the people.
Likewise. Some of the most welcoming people I've ever met.essexplumber said:
No he didn't. He didn't because he does not exsist! Islam, Christianity, Catholism, Budism and the like are all made up fairytales that have morphed into a false faith in there being "something else" from the days that the powers that be used fear as a way of controlling the masses.
Religion is crap and if you are thick or scared enough to follow one then you have my sympathy.
In short, there is no god.
You beat me to it. Well said.Religion is crap and if you are thick or scared enough to follow one then you have my sympathy.
In short, there is no god.
Religion is a state of mind, and the sooner the world (and some posters on here) realise that, the safer we will all be.
IanCormac said:
Dude. I'm no expert on this, but I think you need to do a little more reading. Mohammed and Jesus were real people. Whether they were touched/contacted or whatever by any type of god is questionable, but they at least did a good job of convincing other people that they had been.
Anyway just saying that mohammed never existed is daft as he was a person, saying that you don't believe god exists or existed is something else entirely.
Anyway just saying that mohammed never existed is daft as he was a person, saying that you don't believe god exists or existed is something else entirely.
Countdown said:
Cobnapint said:
FORTUNATELY, they haven't - YET. But thats only because I happened not to be at any of the qouted UK locations when they thought it would be a neat idea to show us just how 'peacefull' they were.
RIP the 7/7 victims.
Are you worried about the Irish as well?RIP the 7/7 victims.
kuzushi said:
Well, jizya might be happening now in some places, but the point I was trying to make earlier, in reference to a comment about Andalucia, was that it was not necessary for islam to massacre all non-believers to dominate the world. If you impose jizya and dhimmitude on subjugated peoples then that's enough to dominate them. You don't need to kill them to dominate them.
Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
So you have absolutely no proof but it is fact? Does islam want to take over the world? Well, I think it's kind of designed to do that, and given the way things are going I can see it happening gradually, largely through demographics and immigration, combined with the nature of islam.
Am I right in thinking that the idea of jizya and dhimmis has its origins in the qur'an?
What kind of agenda are you pushing here?
Me? Against all religions. Pointless, archaic institutions. But the majority of people who follow all religions are fundamentally decent people.
Not all Catholics are kiddie fiddlers. Not all Christians are represented by far right militias in the US. Not all Muslims are extremists. Not all Buddhists wear orange robes.
Colonial said:
So you have absolutely no proof but it is fact?
Proof of what? What's a fact?Colonial said:
Not all Catholics are kiddie fiddlers. Not all Christians are represented by far right militias in the US. Not all Muslims are extremists. Not all Buddhists wear orange robes.
Indeed. But no one is saying that all Catholics are kiddie fiddlers, or that all Muslims are extremists.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff