Discussion
Grumfutock said:
1. Again you were not talking about now, you were talking pre 1948! Cases and examples please! Or should we assume that you are now just making wild and made up accusations to suit your revisionist historical view? What am I saying? You have been doing that for months!
As I said, "let's assume they were not forged" and "But, if you like, let's assume that all this is horlicks". I'm glad that you accept the more recent Israeli deceptions.
You don't contest that the actual Jewish ownership was tiny? 3% rising to 7% in '47? All your puffing and posturing aside, those are surely the important figures.
The revisionist history, heval, is the one backed by official Israeli documents! Your history is based on a fantasy written before they were available.
Grumfutock said:
2. I was referring to your other accusation that the Jews stole far more than the UN had granted them.
The UN awarded Israel 55%. After the '48 war they had 78%. These figures are not generally disputed. If you want figures/maps for the situation at the time of the declaration of the state of Israel, you'll have to give me more time. Grumfutock said:
3. WHAT? You said: "But there are also many examples of Jews and Arabs living in harmony." Where are these 'examples' then? You said they DID, not they might in a proposal!
Strangely, Deir Yassin "By most accounts, they lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors in nearby villages, particularly those in Givat Shaul, an Orthodox community just across the valley, some of whom reportedly tried to help the Deir Yassin villagers during the Irgun-Lehi invasion." Wikipaedia, with citations. "In 2010, the Supreme Court of Israel rejected a petition by the newspaper Haaretz for the declassification of documents, reports and photographs concerning the Deir Yassin massacre. The court cited the possible damage to Israel's foreign relations and its negotiations with the Palestinians."I can find others, but it'll mean trawling through Pappe, Morris, et al. Zachary Lockman's book Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine, 1906-1948 will provide others, often under the most unfavourable conditions.
Grumfutock said:
And why would the Jew trust an Arab now? 70 years has taught Israel one thing: Never, ever believe an Arab when he says all he wants is peace! People judge by deeds and the Arab world has, repeatedly, shown itself to lie on this matter!
Same old, same old. You may as well ask a Palestinian the same question. But I note that you don't deem Palestinians worthy of asking! I believe that in a world where Muslims can help rebuild a Synagogue (in sunny Bradford) or where Kurds (nominally Muslim, living in a more than nominally Muslim Turkey) can take pride in rebuilding a Church, a Mosque and a Synagogue on the same street, anything is possible. But it'll take time, and it will be painful. Step one, get Arabs to recognise the Shoah, get Jews to recognise the Nakba.
But, as I've said before, there are perfectly rational Israeli politicians who believe that a peace is possible. And, of course, there is Bibi who believes everything is impossible.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 21:49
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 21:53
LucreLout said:
Ultimately, if there can't be peace between Israel and Palestine, and the ongoing feud is going to keep inspiring terrorists like we've seen in France this week, then logically there can only be Israel or Palestine, not both.
Pro rata those in the west bank and Gaza strip between all the muslim nations and relocate them. Within 3 generations the issue is forgotten.
Israel has nukes so pragmatically can't be made to leave and there are no other majority Jewish countries into which they could be integrated.
It'll not be popular, but then there isn't any other solution that would be.
So, one ethnic cleansing on top of another? Shame we didn't allow the Serbs to take that option and transport the Bosnians to Syria, maybe? Let's let a tiny Muslim sect dictate foreign policy. Maybe we should consult the Scientologists, too? Pro rata those in the west bank and Gaza strip between all the muslim nations and relocate them. Within 3 generations the issue is forgotten.
Israel has nukes so pragmatically can't be made to leave and there are no other majority Jewish countries into which they could be integrated.
It'll not be popular, but then there isn't any other solution that would be.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 21:51
Grumfutock said:
LucreLout said:
Ultimately, if there can't be peace between Israel and Palestine, and the ongoing feud is going to keep inspiring terrorists like we've seen in France this week, then logically there can only be Israel or Palestine, not both.
Pro rata those in the west bank and Gaza strip between all the muslim nations and relocate them. Within 3 generations the issue is forgotten.
Israel has nukes so pragmatically can't be made to leave and there are no other majority Jewish countries into which they could be integrated.
It'll not be popular, but then there isn't any other solution that would be.
Sadly I came to that conclusion a long time ago. Far to much water has passed under the bridge now and there can never be peace, not in our life times anyway.Pro rata those in the west bank and Gaza strip between all the muslim nations and relocate them. Within 3 generations the issue is forgotten.
Israel has nukes so pragmatically can't be made to leave and there are no other majority Jewish countries into which they could be integrated.
It'll not be popular, but then there isn't any other solution that would be.
TheRealFingers99 said:
To the first two, no. To the third, while Charlie Hebdo (note, I'm the one who put up the front page!) took the piss out of Israel mercilessly, and will no doubt continue to do so, the attacks in France were clearly the work of Al-Q: to both gain some headlines back from ISIS and to provoke repression against Muslims and thus draw in more Jihadis. Incidentally, Israel has a rather bizarre (I hope tactical rather than strategic!) alliance with Al-Q offshoot Al_Nusra, which has drawn the attention of the UN.
Im sorry you keep rattling on 'ethnic cleansing' referring to a couple of books ,one by a man who is a self confessed liar and another who retracted what he wrote claiming people were misinterpreting it. blah blah blah yawn.Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 16:25
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 17:23
Yet you never answered a simple question ,what part of ethnic cleansing allows 1/4 of the population nearly 250,000 to stay ? Not very succesful ethnic cleansing was it?
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable (rape...yeah sure see PLO leaders comments about how they spread that myth)anyway ignoring all the terrorist attacks on jewish settlements like safed in early 19th century where the almost the entire jewish population was wiped out.
You certainly live in some weird fantasy world where you think muslims allowed jews to live amongst them peacefully throughout the middle east ,they were not they were often treated like 2nd class citizens,and very persecuted unless they converted to islam .
I pointed this out before ,you refer to some history using israeli government documents to support your case ,pappe etc ,yet when it suits you israeli government documents are forged ,you cannot have it both ways just for your convenience.They are either reliable or not.
Your constant attempts to de ligitimize Israel are tedious.Your proposal for a solution is just not remotely feasible ,Abbas recently said 'no israeli will be allowed to live in a palestinian state,the leader of hamas stated no jew will be allowed to live in a palestinian state .
You more or less only post on this thread from what I see ,whilst you are free to post where you like ,I am intrigued why ? Rather bizarre to come on a car forum and just post on one thread ,and one topic.Almost like you are here to do a certain job .
TheRealFingers99 said:
The revisionist history, heval, is the one backed by official Israeli documents! Your history is based on a fantasy written before they were available.
WOW!!! You really are on another planet! As I said complete and utter revisionist!TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
2. I was referring to your other accusation that the Jews stole far more than the UN had granted them.
The UN awarded Israel 55%. After the '48 war they had 78%. These figures are not generally disputed. If you want figures/maps for the situation at the time of the declaration of the state of Israel, you'll have to give me more time. TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
3. WHAT? You said: "But there are also many examples of Jews and Arabs living in harmony." Where are these 'examples' then? You said they DID, not they might in a proposal!
Strangely, Deir Yassin "By most accounts, they lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors in nearby villages, particularly those in Givat Shaul, an Orthodox community just across the valley, some of whom reportedly tried to help the Deir Yassin villagers during the Irgun-Lehi invasion." Wikipaedia, with citations. "In 2010, the Supreme Court of Israel rejected a petition by the newspaper Haaretz for the declassification of documents, reports and photographs concerning the Deir Yassin massacre. The court cited the possible damage to Israel's foreign relations and its negotiations with the Palestinians."I can find others, but it'll mean trawling through Pappe, Morris, et al. Zachary Lockman's book Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine, 1906-1948 will provide others, often under the most unfavourable conditions.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
And why would the Jew trust an Arab now? 70 years has taught Israel one thing: Never, ever believe an Arab when he says all he wants is peace! People judge by deeds and the Arab world has, repeatedly, shown itself to lie on this matter!
Same old, same old. You may as well ask a Palestinian the same question. But I note that you don't deem Palestinians worthy of asking! I believe that in a world where Muslims can help rebuild a Synagogue (in sunny Bradford) or where Kurds (nominally Muslim, living in a more than nominally Muslim Turkey) can take pride in rebuilding a Church, a Mosque and a Synagogue on the same street, anything is possible. But it'll take time, and it will be painful. Step one, get Arabs to recognise the Shoah, get Jews to recognise the Nakba.
But, as I've said before, there are perfectly rational Israeli politicians who believe that a peace is possible. And, of course, there is Bibi who believes everything is impossible.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
The revisionist history, heval, is the one backed by official Israeli documents! Your history is based on a fantasy written before they were available.
WOW!!! You really are on another planet! As I said complete and utter revisionist!Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
2. I was referring to your other accusation that the Jews stole far more than the UN had granted them.
The UN awarded Israel 55%. After the '48 war they had 78%. These figures are not generally disputed. If you want figures/maps for the situation at the time of the declaration of the state of Israel, you'll have to give me more time. Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
3. WHAT? You said: "But there are also many examples of Jews and Arabs living in harmony." Where are these 'examples' then? You said they DID, not they might in a proposal!
Strangely, Deir Yassin "By most accounts, they lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors in nearby villages, particularly those in Givat Shaul, an Orthodox community just across the valley, some of whom reportedly tried to help the Deir Yassin villagers during the Irgun-Lehi invasion." Wikipaedia, with citations. "In 2010, the Supreme Court of Israel rejected a petition by the newspaper Haaretz for the declassification of documents, reports and photographs concerning the Deir Yassin massacre. The court cited the possible damage to Israel's foreign relations and its negotiations with the Palestinians."I can find others, but it'll mean trawling through Pappe, Morris, et al. Zachary Lockman's book Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine, 1906-1948 will provide others, often under the most unfavourable conditions.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
And why would the Jew trust an Arab now? 70 years has taught Israel one thing: Never, ever believe an Arab when he says all he wants is peace! People judge by deeds and the Arab world has, repeatedly, shown itself to lie on this matter!
Same old, same old. You may as well ask a Palestinian the same question. But I note that you don't deem Palestinians worthy of asking! I believe that in a world where Muslims can help rebuild a Synagogue (in sunny Bradford) or where Kurds (nominally Muslim, living in a more than nominally Muslim Turkey) can take pride in rebuilding a Church, a Mosque and a Synagogue on the same street, anything is possible. But it'll take time, and it will be painful. Step one, get Arabs to recognise the Shoah, get Jews to recognise the Nakba.
But, as I've said before, there are perfectly rational Israeli politicians who believe that a peace is possible. And, of course, there is Bibi who believes everything is impossible.
In the face of their conviction, what you or I think is pretty irrelevant.
On a really odd note, Hezbollah "sort of" came out for Charlie Hebdo today.http://aranews.net/2015/01/islamist-terrorists-insulted-islam-cartoon-hezbollah-leader/ The world is a stranger place than most of us can concieve!
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 10th January 15:25
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 10th January 15:26
Sorry but what Frankie wrote suns up what I have said for months.
1. Your have a subversive agenda.
2. You have and believe in a revisionist version of history.
3. The Arabs can and have done no wrong, ever and can do no wrong in your opinion, PERIOD!
4. The complete opposite is true of Israel. In your version everything is their fault, PERIOD!
5. Israel must give everything up and the Arab must give up nothing.
You are a fantasist!
1. Your have a subversive agenda.
2. You have and believe in a revisionist version of history.
3. The Arabs can and have done no wrong, ever and can do no wrong in your opinion, PERIOD!
4. The complete opposite is true of Israel. In your version everything is their fault, PERIOD!
5. Israel must give everything up and the Arab must give up nothing.
You are a fantasist!
franki68 said:
Im sorry you keep rattling on 'ethnic cleansing' referring to a couple of books ,one by a man who is a self confessed liar and another who retracted what he wrote claiming people were misinterpreting it. blah blah blah yawn.
Yet you never answered a simple question ,what part of ethnic cleansing allows 1/4 of the population nearly 250,000 to stay ? Not very succesful ethnic cleansing was it?
It was pretty much stopped by the international community. And dogged resistance. There's still a UN resolution on the table for the return of the refugees. If it didn't happen, why the resolution? The Serbs attempted an ethnic cleansing in ex-Yugoslavia. It failed. Or do you want to deny that, too? Yet you never answered a simple question ,what part of ethnic cleansing allows 1/4 of the population nearly 250,000 to stay ? Not very succesful ethnic cleansing was it?
Again, these ad hominem attacks on Pappe. Again, no reference. Plenty of the other New Historians support the same view. Talk to Hillel Cohen, for example.
franki68 said:
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable
No one denies that there was a Jewish nation there. No one denies that there was a Kurdish Sultanate there. Are you suggesting that if the Kurds can establish a continuous Kurdish presence from Saladin to the present they have a right to the territory?
franki68 said:
(rape...yeah sure see PLO leaders comments about how they spread that myth)anyway ignoring all the terrorist attacks on jewish settlements like safed in early 19th century where the almost the entire jewish population was wiped out.
The rape stuff is documented both in Ben Gurion's War Diaries and in Pappe. One incident involves the gang rape of a 12 year old who was subsequently murdered. IIRC, this was IDF, not one of the Zionist terror gangs.franki68 said:
You certainly live in some weird fantasy world where you think muslims allowed jews to live amongst them peacefully throughout the middle east ,they were not they were often treated like 2nd class citizens,and very persecuted unless they converted to islam .
The throughout the Middle East bit is your insertion, not mine. franki68 said:
I pointed this out before ,you refer to some history using israeli government documents to support your case ,pappe etc ,yet when it suits you israeli government documents are forged ,you cannot have it both ways just for your convenience.They are either reliable or not.
Since when have deeds of sale been official Israel government documents? They're just commercial documents.franki68 said:
Your constant attempts to de ligitimize Israel are tedious.Your proposal for a solution is just not remotely feasible ,Abbas recently said 'no israeli will be allowed to live in a palestinian state,the leader of hamas stated no jew will be allowed to live in a palestinian state .
So what? It's empty rhetoric. Everyone except a handful of extremists on each side understand it as empty rhetoric. I don't advocate a separate Palestinian state. But what YOU have to deal with are Israeli politicians who do. franki68 said:
You more or less only post on this thread from what I see ,whilst you are free to post where you like ,I am intrigued why ? Rather bizarre to come on a car forum and just post on one thread ,and one topic.Almost like you are here to do a certain job .
Ah, more ad hominem. I'll post wherever I like, heval, where I find something interesting. Were there more threads on small Fiats or Toyota MR2s I'd post there. Grumfutock said:
Sorry but what Frankie wrote suns up what I have said for months.
1. Your have a subversive agenda.
2. You have and believe in a revisionist version of history.
3. The Arabs can and have done no wrong, ever and can do no wrong in your opinion, PERIOD!
4. The complete opposite is true of Israel. In your version everything is their fault, PERIOD!
5. Israel must give everything up and the Arab must give up nothing.
You are a fantasist!
1. What am I trying to subvert? 1. Your have a subversive agenda.
2. You have and believe in a revisionist version of history.
3. The Arabs can and have done no wrong, ever and can do no wrong in your opinion, PERIOD!
4. The complete opposite is true of Israel. In your version everything is their fault, PERIOD!
5. Israel must give everything up and the Arab must give up nothing.
You are a fantasist!
2. I believe that history should use all available sources, that it is not a fixed entity to be enshrined as the tool of some nationalist ideology. The past does not change -- the tools and documents we have to examine it (and hence our interpretations of the past) do. Your view of history is equivalent to a flat earth view of the world!
3. The Arabs have done plenty of wrong! Look at Assad, look at Sadam, look at the Christian Falangists, look at Hamas, look at Saudi! Holy cow........
4. Nonsense. There are great Jews, there are great Israelis. I do maintain, however, that the Zionist enterprise was largely a disaster.
5. Ahem. I'm the one calling for peace and a single state solution. You're the one calling for either continued attrition or the mass deportation of Palestinians or nuking the West Bank.
If I am a fantasist, my fantasies are shared by sane, respectable, Israeli politicians. Deal with that, or say kadesh for Ben-Gurion.
I do not have to DEAL with anything. I do not live in Palestine or Israel. The Israeli's hold all the land and cards. I would suggest it is Hamas and the PLO that have to DEAL with it.
You are what you are. Many have gone before, many have been found out for what they are and many have talked utter revisionist b
ks to no end.
Try to alter history all you want. Historical facts are there for the world to see!
You are what you are. Many have gone before, many have been found out for what they are and many have talked utter revisionist b
ks to no end.Try to alter history all you want. Historical facts are there for the world to see!
franki68 said:
Im sorry you keep rattling on 'ethnic cleansing' referring to a couple of books ,one by a man who is a self confessed liar and another who retracted what he wrote claiming people were misinterpreting it. blah blah blah yawn.
Yet you never answered a simple question ,what part of ethnic cleansing allows 1/4 of the population nearly 250,000 to stay ? Not very succesful ethnic cleansing was it?
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable (rape...yeah sure see PLO leaders comments about how they spread that myth)anyway ignoring all the terrorist attacks on jewish settlements like safed in early 19th century where the almost the entire jewish population was wiped out.
You certainly live in some weird fantasy world where you think muslims allowed jews to live amongst them peacefully throughout the middle east ,they were not they were often treated like 2nd class citizens,and very persecuted unless they converted to islam .
I pointed this out before ,you refer to some history using israeli government documents to support your case ,pappe etc ,yet when it suits you israeli government documents are forged ,you cannot have it both ways just for your convenience.They are either reliable or not.
Your constant attempts to de ligitimize Israel are tedious.Your proposal for a solution is just not remotely feasible ,Abbas recently said 'no israeli will be allowed to live in a palestinian state,the leader of hamas stated no jew will be allowed to live in a palestinian state .
You more or less only post on this thread from what I see ,whilst you are free to post where you like ,I am intrigued why ? Rather bizarre to come on a car forum and just post on one thread ,and one topic.Almost like you are here to do a certain job .
I think " real fingers " is Jewish and when he was circumcised the mohel cut too much off his schmakel and he has borne a grudge ever since.Yet you never answered a simple question ,what part of ethnic cleansing allows 1/4 of the population nearly 250,000 to stay ? Not very succesful ethnic cleansing was it?
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable (rape...yeah sure see PLO leaders comments about how they spread that myth)anyway ignoring all the terrorist attacks on jewish settlements like safed in early 19th century where the almost the entire jewish population was wiped out.
You certainly live in some weird fantasy world where you think muslims allowed jews to live amongst them peacefully throughout the middle east ,they were not they were often treated like 2nd class citizens,and very persecuted unless they converted to islam .
I pointed this out before ,you refer to some history using israeli government documents to support your case ,pappe etc ,yet when it suits you israeli government documents are forged ,you cannot have it both ways just for your convenience.They are either reliable or not.
Your constant attempts to de ligitimize Israel are tedious.Your proposal for a solution is just not remotely feasible ,Abbas recently said 'no israeli will be allowed to live in a palestinian state,the leader of hamas stated no jew will be allowed to live in a palestinian state .
You more or less only post on this thread from what I see ,whilst you are free to post where you like ,I am intrigued why ? Rather bizarre to come on a car forum and just post on one thread ,and one topic.Almost like you are here to do a certain job .
TheRealFingers99 said:
franki68 said:
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable
No one denies that there was a Jewish nation there. No one denies that there was a Kurdish Sultanate there. Are you suggesting that if the Kurds can establish a continuous Kurdish presence from Saladin to the present they have a right to the territory?
Chlamydia said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
franki68 said:
You refer to history and yet ignore the simple history that there was a jewish nation there ,and a continual jewish presence in the land (you should go to some arab villages quite interesting seeing some of them living in very old houses with magendovids on the wall),you refer to deir yassin which is highly debatable
No one denies that there was a Jewish nation there. No one denies that there was a Kurdish Sultanate there. Are you suggesting that if the Kurds can establish a continuous Kurdish presence from Saladin to the present they have a right to the territory?
TheRealFingers99 said:
No. I'm taking the urine. Both Jews and Palestinians have a right to live there. I'm only against the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and the establishment of a racially based state.
But Arab ethnic cleansing is ok?Oh and there is a racially based state. It's called Israel (Jewish).
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
Try to alter history all you want. Historical facts are there for the world to see!
So deal with them! Don't try and visit the States or Oz. You'll fall off! There be dragons! Grumfutock said:
But Arab ethnic cleansing is ok?
Oh and there is a racially based state. It's called Israel (Jewish).
Ethnic cleansing is a war crime whoever commits it. Again (how many times) I'm against a two state solution, I'm against racially based states, I'm against the Zionist project, the Serbian project and the Nazi project. The Fascists can (and should) go to hell. Oh and there is a racially based state. It's called Israel (Jewish).
TheRealFingers99 said:
It is you. And you're so deluded that you can't see it. You want a history of Israel that was written in 1995. You want to deny the Nakba. You want to defame Breaking the Silence as fakes. I could go on, but it gets boring, and I want to see how Chelsea did and how the YPG are doing against a bunch of terrorists who happen to be (mainly) Arabs.
Really? Who attacked in 1948? Remind me how many nations were involved? Now was that in 48? When was the history of that one written? Hmmmmmmm 
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