Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[Mrr T]

SpeckledJim said:

In and of itself, it isn't. A referendum is very 'pure' part of democracy. With that comes an obligation not to abuse it.

But the purpose of this mooted second referendum is specifically to obviate an earlier referendum. So the very idea of referenda in general would be undermined by a second referendum, thus damaging democracy.

We take referenda seriously (well, we should. The group 18-24 didn't. Whoops!) because the result will be taken seriously.

If we don't take the result of the first one seriously, why would we take the result of the second seriously? And the third...?

As they are such an important part of democracy surely we should have more of them. Perhaps like the Swiss.

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

I guess a vote would be valid if you got a consistent result.

[captain_cynic]

Mrr T said:

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

Most 18-24 year olds think that they have no power in an election, so it's a waste of time voting. Its little surprise they feel that way, both parties pander exclusively to the middle aged and elderly and everyone else gets little more than lip service, only a select few minor parties will try to engage young people.

[SpeckledJim]

Mrr T said:

SpeckledJim said:

In and of itself, it isn't. A referendum is very 'pure' part of democracy. With that comes an obligation not to abuse it.

But the purpose of this mooted second referendum is specifically to obviate an earlier referendum. So the very idea of referenda in general would be undermined by a second referendum, thus damaging democracy.

We take referenda seriously (well, we should. The group 18-24 didn't. Whoops!) because the result will be taken seriously.

If we don't take the result of the first one seriously, why would we take the result of the second seriously? And the third...?

As they are such an important part of democracy surely we should have more of them. Perhaps like the Swiss.

Yes, perhaps we should. No argument there. But each one should be about a different thing to the others.

Mrr T said:

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

I guess a vote would be valid if you got a consistent result.

We did check their views. In the referendum. They were busy on Pokemon.

As to their votes, most didn't express an opinion. Of those that did, they were strongly pro-remain.

If the youth had the same propensity to vote as senior citizens, they would have swung it the other way.

But they didn't. Silly silly billies.

You're correct - they are the group most affected by the vote, but they were also the group least bothered about voting.

How do you propose we should have consulted them, other than with the actual referendum they largely ignored?

[don'tbesilly]

Mrr T said:

SpeckledJim said:

In and of itself, it isn't. A referendum is very 'pure' part of democracy. With that comes an obligation not to abuse it.

But the purpose of this mooted second referendum is specifically to obviate an earlier referendum. So the very idea of referenda in general would be undermined by a second referendum, thus damaging democracy.

We take referenda seriously (well, we should. The group 18-24 didn't. Whoops!) because the result will be taken seriously.

If we don't take the result of the first one seriously, why would we take the result of the second seriously? And the third...?

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

You would have thought that as the group that will be most impacted by the decision to leave the EU they would have had more interest in their own futures and taken part in the referendum so their voices were heard.

Is there any reason why we should take their views into account now, or do you think we always need to molly coddle the young and constantly seek their views, even when they refuse to express their views/opinions when given the opportunity to do so.

[andymadmak]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

SpeckledJim said:

In and of itself, it isn't. A referendum is very 'pure' part of democracy. With that comes an obligation not to abuse it.

But the purpose of this mooted second referendum is specifically to obviate an earlier referendum. So the very idea of referenda in general would be undermined by a second referendum, thus damaging democracy.

We take referenda seriously (well, we should. The group 18-24 didn't. Whoops!) because the result will be taken seriously.

If we don't take the result of the first one seriously, why would we take the result of the second seriously? And the third...?

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

You would have thought that as the group that will be most impacted by the decision to leave the EU they would have had more interest in their own futures and taken part in the referendum so their voices were heard.

Is there any reason why we should take their views into account now, or do you think we always need to molly coddle the young and constantly seek their views, even when they refuse to express their views/opinions when given the opportunity to do so.

Whilst the young may be the most affected by Brexit (there is a debate to be had about that point) is it not also the case that the young are the least qualified to judge how a non EU UK might look and function?
All they have ever known is the EU....

Perhaps this uncertainty is what made them hesitate to vote in REF1? Perhaps they actually WANTED their elders (and betters) to make the (more informed) decision?

[b2hbm]

PurpleMoonlight said:

What if you were ordering a car, you didn't know the make, the model, the colour etc. Only three quarters into the wait for your new car would you find that out. Should you be allowed to change your mind?

What an amazing analogy. In the 1970s I voted to stay in the EEC. I had no idea about it morphing into the EU, moving from 12 to 27 nations, passing legislation which ruled how we govern our waterways, accepting eastern European states or flirting with the idea of Turkey being given membership. I had no idea it would decide it needed an anthem or it's own little private army.

So yes, going back to your analogy, I am allowed to change my mind....

[B'stard Child]

Ghibli said:

Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.

I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?

I'd settle for UK exit from Eurovision - was one of my 273 reasons to leave *

* 350 for the NHS wasn't one

[B'stard Child]

sidicks said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

Best of three?

Are you gonna carry forward your unused vote from last time?

Wrong question..... Sorry but the question really should be - Are you going to vote in the event of EU Ref2?

[citizensm1th]

B'stard Child said:

Ghibli said:

Now that we have Nige Kinda maybe asking for another referendum it's got me wondering what each side will be offering if it goes ahead.

I assume remain will be saying that we will be staying in the EU and things will remain as they already are. I am curious as to what leave will be offering. Obviously the bespoke trade deal with the EU will be off the cards along with extra for the NHS. Will it be based on special trade deals with the rest of the world and sovereignty?

I'd settle for UK exit from Eurovision - was one of my 273 reasons to leave *

* 350 for the NHS wasn't one

not gona happen until the BBC is dissolved BTW how the fk is israel in eurovision?

[B'stard Child]

citizensm1th said:

not gona happen until the BBC is dissolved BTW how the fk is israel in eurovision?

First point - that wasn’t on my list but I’m in favour of the suggestion

Second point - exactly the sort of expansionist tendancies from the EU that persuaded me to vote leave last time

[anonymous-user]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

SpeckledJim said:

In and of itself, it isn't. A referendum is very 'pure' part of democracy. With that comes an obligation not to abuse it.

But the purpose of this mooted second referendum is specifically to obviate an earlier referendum. So the very idea of referenda in general would be undermined by a second referendum, thus damaging democracy.

We take referenda seriously (well, we should. The group 18-24 didn't. Whoops!) because the result will be taken seriously.

If we don't take the result of the first one seriously, why would we take the result of the second seriously? And the third...?

You comment about the low turnout of 18-24 year olds are interesting. I have no idea if they would have affected the outcome but as the group most impacted by the result it would seem to me more democratic if we actually checked there views rather than say they could not be bothered to vote tough.

You would have thought that as the group that will be most impacted by the decision to leave the EU they would have had more interest in their own futures and taken part in the referendum so their voices were heard.

Is there any reason why we should take their views into account now, or do you think we always need to molly coddle the young and constantly seek their views, even when they refuse to express their views/opinions when given the opportunity to do so.

Just on this point-it's a myth that there was a hugely low turnout amongst young voters.

It was 64% of eligible voters in the 18-24 range, not far off the "Huge" number of voters (72%) that gave Labour a massive boost at the last GE.

[davey68]

The point raised by several posters and glossed over by the remainers demanding a 2nd referendum. What happens if the result is still say, 52-48 leave, do we have another, how about 50.1 - 49.9? At what point would the result be 'accepted'? Or do we follow the usual EU mantra, repeat your referendum until you get the 'right' result?

[anonymous-user]

Well it is going to happen, even Nigel is up for it.
Would be no surprise if Theresa restates her belief that Brexit is a bloody idea & changes direction (which she should anyway as an MP, ‘the will of the people’ in her strongly pro-remain constituency)
Interesting times & a lot of twists & turns ahead.

[Jockman]

citizensm1th said:

not gona happen until the BBC is dissolved BTW how the fk is israel in eurovision?

It’s a lot closer than Australia.

[Jockman]

davey68 said:

The point raised by several posters and glossed over by the remainers demanding a 2nd referendum. What happens if the result is still say, 52-48 leave, do we have another, how about 50.1 - 49.9? At what point would the result be 'accepted'? Or do we follow the usual EU mantra, repeat your referendum until you get the 'right' result?

All future referenda must have a min of 10% gap between the choice outcomes??

[B'stard Child]

Jockman said:

citizensm1th said:

not gona happen until the BBC is dissolved BTW how the fk is israel in eurovision?

It’s a lot closer than Australia.

The EU have offered membership to Australia??? Jesus they really do want to be a united states

[Jockman]

B'stard Child said:

The EU have offered membership to Australia??? Jesus they really do want to be a united states

Lol. What happens if Australia actually wins Eurovision? Do they just hold it in the country that comes second?

[B'stard Child]

Jockman said:

B'stard Child said:

The EU have offered membership to Australia??? Jesus they really do want to be a united states

Lol. What happens if Australia actually wins Eurovision? Do they just hold it in the country that comes second?

They wrote the book on the subject

Think

Qatar
&
FIFA

The case for the prosecution rests

[anonymous-user]

Assuming "The new leave campaign" will be based around new and exciting trade deals.

What will we have to offer these countries? Will we be telling them that all of our present EU trade will be heading their way? I would imagine this trade will be fairly small when spread across the world and we are working at lowering our trade deficit. Will team leave be selling the idea that countries around the world are desperate for our financial services. Will it be said that lower purchasing power put us in a better position?

Sensible and comical ideas welcome.

[Dr Jekyll]

Ghibli said:

Assuming "The new leave campaign" will be based around new and exciting trade deals.

What will we have to offer these countries? Will we be telling them that all of our present EU trade will be heading their way? I would imagine this trade will be fairly small when spread across the world and we are working at lowering our trade deficit. Will team leave be selling the idea that countries around the world are desperate for our financial services. Will it be said that lower purchasing power put us in a better position?

Sensible and comical ideas welcome.

We are already trading throughout the world. What we do is say 'we'll lift import tariffs on your stuff if you reciprocate', the way trade deals have always worked.