The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Esceptico said:
As so much of the female experience (at least to the extent it differs from being a man) is linked to their body if is valid to include trans women as equivalent to women? I’ve not seen anything yet that is conclusive but open to be convinced.
Is it? Part of the female experience is using women's loos. Done that.
Part of the female experience is shopping for dresses, makeup, and the like. Done that too.
Another part of the female experience is having misogynistic men talk down to you in a condescending way. I've certainly experienced that. And cat-calling, wolf-whilstling, and the everyday sexism that women face. So, yes, I've had that female experience.
"Oh, but that's not what I meant", you'll say. "I meant something that excludes trans women and reinforces my existing opinion".
Esceptico said:
I’ve not seen anything yet that is conclusive but open to be convinced.
I’ve not seen anything yet that suggests that you are, but I'm open open to be convinced.Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 5th December 15:57
8.4L 154 said:
You seem to be confusing opinion with experience. Gender critical and the general public have an opinion on trans people. Trans people have experience and experience counts for a hell of a lot more than opinion and especially when the opinion is either uniformed or misinformed or myopic which even if your self proclaimed polymath the chances are if your reading mainstream and even a lot of specialist media, unless your talking to trans people your not getting a complete picture or rounded education on the subject, and your attitude here indicates you are not prepared to listen to trans people because you know best in your opinion.
I’m not a self proclaimed polymath. It is a label applied to me by my wife. Apart from the fact that I respect her opinions we have been living together for over thirty years so I put more store on her thoughts than random people on the internet I’ve never met and who know nothing about me.Trans people can provide their subjective experience of what it feels like to be them and how they have experienced society’s reaction to them. That doesn’t give them a special insight or privileged position with respect to the science. I’ve suffered from lots of colds in my life but that doesn’t make me qualified to talk about infectious diseases.
8.4L 154 said:
It seems strange and there is a level of cognitive dissidence that you seem to accept that intersex infants that have a sex chosen and enforced upon them can later self identify as the other sex, but trans people can not do similar. Either there is a concept of gender identity that causes those intersex kids to grow up identifying as the sex that has not been chosen for them or there isn't. The evidence is clearly in favour of gender identity existing even if we don't understand the brain to a level to evidence it physically. But then I dare you to find the physical evidence supporting personality, something that clearly we accept is a thing.
My fundamental concern is that people can self identify as the other gender without having to meet any objective criteria and that everyone then has to accept that without dissent (in fact they risk persecution or prosecution if they don’t). There are intersex people although it is very rare - around 0.02% show some sign of being intersex. However I don’t know what percentage of that are borderline cases ie halfway between male and female rather than predominantly one sex but with some characteristics of the other. My understanding is that most trans people are not intersex, although many may never have been tested and I think that would be an interesting area of study. The normal scientific approach - and rational approach - would to be draw up criteria as to what constitutes male and female (and if necessary a third category) for those not fitting into either of the main categories and people would be allocated based on objective criteria.
In my opinion it makes a nonsense of the category “woman” if biological males can claim and have to be accepted as a woman without providing any objective evidence that they have a right to be in that category.
I do empathise with many feminists who are uncomfortable with current laws. After being subject to sexism for millennia they probably thought that at least one area that men couldn’t take from them was their womanhood yet now any man can claim to be a woman and have to be accepted as one.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Don't be daft. You proclaimed it yourself on this thread. Several times. Or does your wife tell you what to post on this thread?
If you had not have posted it, we would not have known.
I think your objectivity is being muddled by our disagreements. Most other people I think would understand the difference between “self-proclaimed” ie someone deciding that they are a polymath and just saying they are a polymath on the basis of that is how other people have described them.If you had not have posted it, we would not have known.
Esceptico said:
I do empathise with many feminists who are uncomfortable with current laws. After being subject to sexism for millennia they probably thought that at least one area that men couldn’t take from them was their womanhood yet now any man can claim to be a woman and have to be accepted as one.
You say "yet now". Now, as in when? Please could you advise us as to what, in your learned opinion, has changed recently? Are you talking about the Equality Act 2010?Can you cite evidence of a huge upsurge in instances of trans women causing problems for other women since that time?
Esceptico said:
I think your objectivity is being muddled by our disagreements. Most other people I think would understand the difference between “self-proclaimed” ie someone deciding that they are a polymath and just saying they are a polymath on the basis of that is how other people have described them.
Most people would understand that in the context of this thread, "self-proclaimed" was used in the sense that you were the one that mentioned it, rather to another poster saying it about you. But by all means split hairs if you wish. It just makes you look like even more of a pratt than you already do.
General George Smiley said:
What’s a polymath?
A polymath (Greek: πολυμαθής, polymathēs, "having learned much"; Latin: homo universalis, "universal man") is an individual whose knowledge spans a significant number of subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems. (source: Wikipedia)
a person of encyclopedic learning
(source: Merriam-Webster dictionary)
Basically people who are extremely well-read on a wide range of subjects, and are considered experts in several fields. For example, Leonardo da Vinci and Isaac Newton were both considered to be Polymaths.
Esceptico said:
Someone with interest and knowledge of a wide range of subjects.
No, that's a Layman. To be a Polymath you need to be an _expert_ in a wide range of subjects. Clockwork Cupcake said:
I’ve not seen anything yet that suggests that you are, but I'm open open to be convinced.
The most important people to me are women: wife, daughter, mother and sister (the next one is male - my dog - but not being the same species he probably doesn’t really count). Looking back over my life the majority of close friends have been women. Women fascinate me. I would very much like to experience what it would be like to be a woman for a day (actually any other person or even an animal to be able to feel how they experience the world). Unfortunately that will never be possible as we are stuck within our own heads. Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 5th December 15:57
What you have experienced is what it is like to be treated as a woman or to do things that women do. But is that the same thing as how it feels for women themselves inside their own heads when they experience the same events?
Esceptico said:
What you have experienced is what it is like to be treated as a woman or to do things that women do.
Maybe you're right. But that doesn't alter who I am one jot. Esceptico said:
But is that the same thing as how it feels for women themselves inside their own heads when they experience the same events?
Who is to say? Entire books have been written about what it means to be a woman. And, indeed what it means to be human. There is no universal consensus and it has been debated for millennia. All I know is that all of my girl friends accept me as a woman, and don't think of me as anything other than. Several have said that they struggle to even think of me as a guy despite the knowledge that I was born one. And that's good enough for me.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Most people would understand that in the context of this thread, "self-proclaimed" was used in the sense that you were the one that mentioned it, rather to another poster saying it about you.
But by all means split hairs if you wish. It just makes you look like even more of a pratt than you already do.
This whole polymath thing is getting out of hand. You insulted me calling me a “know it all” and I responded saying that a less pejorative term would be a polymath and that I thought reading widely over a range of different topics was a good thing (compared to people living in echo chambers) was a good thing. But by all means split hairs if you wish. It just makes you look like even more of a pratt than you already do.
Esceptico said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Don't be daft. You proclaimed it yourself on this thread. Several times. Or does your wife tell you what to post on this thread?
If you had not have posted it, we would not have known.
I think your objectivity is being muddled by our disagreements. Most other people I think would understand the difference between “self-proclaimed” ie someone deciding that they are a polymath and just saying they are a polymath on the basis of that is how other people have described them.If you had not have posted it, we would not have known.
I'm not self proclaimed I'm a polymath" my wife said it" Yeah, that makes your assertion so much more respectable.So far you have shown yourself to know little about
1) Biology - Many of the traits you listed as defining a woman are shared by trans women
2) Statistics. - the incidence of Intersex people is far higher than your "very rare 0.02%" Its more like 1-2% which is a higher incidence than trans people but not by much.
3) Law. You 1984 interpretation of law around Self ID is far from what the actual law say, you can think what you like about people sex, Harassment is however a crime no matter how you choose to target your victim.
4) trans people, nuff said
. .
Esceptico said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Most people would understand that in the context of this thread, "self-proclaimed" was used in the sense that you were the one that mentioned it, rather to another poster saying it about you.
But by all means split hairs if you wish. It just makes you look like even more of a pratt than you already do.
This whole polymath thing is getting out of hand. You insulted me calling me a “know it all” and I responded saying that a less pejorative term would be a polymath and that I thought reading widely over a range of different topics was a good thing (compared to people living in echo chambers) was a good thing. But by all means split hairs if you wish. It just makes you look like even more of a pratt than you already do.
Esceptico said:
This whole polymath thing is getting out of hand. You insulted me calling me a “know it all”
Blimey, how thin-skinned are you if you think that observing that you come across as a know-it-all is considered an insult? Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 5th December 19:37
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Esceptico said:
This whole polymath thing is getting out of hand. You insulted me calling me a “know it all”
Blimey, how thin-skinned are you if you think that observing that you come across as a know-it-all is considered an insult? Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 5th December 19:37
8.4L 154 said:
Yeah strange how they think referring to intersex bodies as mutilated is fine and not dehumanising in any way, but gets all upset at being called a know it all.
Strange you aren’t able to comprehend basic English. I didn’t say intersex bodies were mutilated I said mutilating children’s bodies are born intersex by removing what is perceived at birth as the “wrong” genitalia was horrific. The fact that you have managed to turn that around 180 degrees says a lot about you and your approach to posters who you don’t agree with.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff