Discussion
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Once you get outside of the Daily Mail and the strange hero-worship he seems to attract on here, he's either unheard of or likely to be seen as a bit of a joke by the wider electorate.
What research did you undertake to form your conclusion... As appears more than just 'on here' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
Cobnapint said:
Helicopter123 said:
Cobnapint said:
I don't think so. JRM is more popular than you think.
JRM a darling of the conservative party membership but universally loathed outside of it.In many ways, he is the Tory Jeremy Corbyn.
I've also left the stats in for Sajid Javid to by way of comparison.
Look at the responses by Conservative and non-conservative voters.
Now post up your evidence that contradicts this please?
hyphen said:
What research did you undertake to form your conclusion... As appears more than just 'on here' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
Do you think they see him as Prime Minister or Chancellor material, or a little bit of an oddity?Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
I can just as easily point to polls like this one https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/22/t...
We're both guessing.
hyphen said:
What research did you undertake to form your conclusion...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
https://m.skybet.com/politics/conservative-special...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
Best get your bets on then
hyphen said:
What research did you undertake to form your conclusion... As appears more than just 'on here' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
Have we slipped back in time through some kind of brexit wormhole? its nice to see Mogg has gone back to fully supporting Mrs May as pmAlso don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
"I am fully supporting Mrs May," Rees-Mogg says.
i guess he withdrew his letter to the 1922 committee then.
still at least we get to have the summer again .FFS
andy_s said:
What's wrong with that? Are 'toffs' less intelligent, less educated, less able than anyone else?
I would certainly say less well rounded, and less able to see the needs of the many.Always well educated, but intelligence and ability would be questionable.
Still, fee free to keep tugging your forelock if it makes you happy.
desolate said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
And that, Cobnapint, is evidence of the issue with JRM. He is a highly polarising figure for all the obvious reasons.
Seriously what does he offer other than the comfort of being old school posh?He's fully old England establishment and not even clever with it.
Why are people so keen on his type?
-He represents a fringe conservative want to return to the past.
-Some people see him as upper class and like to know their place and be ruled by their betters
-Some people agree with his brand of anti EU conservatism
I think he’s totally unelectable and would be a disaster for the conservatives.
Hopefully if he does get put in charge, we’ll see him lead a more right wing Conservative party and Corbyn lead a more left labour and a new centrist party might appear with all the moderate MPs and one nation conservatives and blairite labour MPs.
desolate said:
Cobnapint said:
A joke? In what way?
I'm not saying he 'should' be PM, CoE or anything, but he's one of the most knowledgeable MPs in the Palace of Westminster at the minute.
In every way possible.I'm not saying he 'should' be PM, CoE or anything, but he's one of the most knowledgeable MPs in the Palace of Westminster at the minute.
Never earned anything in his life.
Got his place in a top universitiy because of his connections.
Got a s
tty degree.Got a safe seat because if who he is
The worst type of politician imaginable.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:hyphen said:
What research did you undertake to form your conclusion... As appears more than just 'on here' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40432921
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
Do you think they see him as Prime Minister or Chancellor material, or a little bit of an oddity?Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
I can just as easily point to polls like this one https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/22/t...
We're both guessing.
andy_s said:
hyphen said:
Also don't forget in time of turmoil, Brits are regarded as wanting to turn to the toffs.
What's wrong with that? Are 'toffs' less intelligent, less educated, less able than anyone else?bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Bingo 
I'd also favour an outsider because both the Conservatives and politics in general needs a bloody good kick up the arse.
I agree we need something different.I'd also favour an outsider because both the Conservatives and politics in general needs a bloody good kick up the arse.
I mean, look at the last two outsiders who won unexpectedly.
Jeremy Corbyn
Donald Trump.
I am off to the library to swot up on Anarchy.
JRM has no chance of becoming PM. He might do well on a ballot of the Conservative party membership, but he won't get that far, as MPs won't let him get onto the top 2 shortlist. For that reason, I wouldn't even expect him to put his hat into the ring should an opportunity arise. He would instead most likely leverage his influence of the ERG types, to try and secure himself a senior cabinet position. He could achieve this by backing whoever he perceives would most likely be the winning horse, early in the race.
I like the Aussies for straight no nonsense thinking, perhaps our lot would do well to consider this little piece.
Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott sums it up beautifully!-----
It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?
A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott sums it up beautifully!-----
It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?
A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
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