Rishi Sunak - Prime Minister

[Sway]

President Merkin said:

I'm bored of pointing out that 93% of kids are in state school yet they occup a tiny proportion of top jobs. I made the point again this morning & almost immediately, someone piped up saying VAT on pe damages social mobility.

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

[Tom8]

President Merkin said:

I'm bored of pointing out that 93% of kids are in state school yet they occup a tiny proportion of top jobs. I made the point again this morning & almost immediately, someone piped up saying VAT on pe damages social mobility.

I can explain it to them, I can't make them understand it, They just repeat their mantras ad nauseum until it becomes fact in their heads. It's this kind of alternative reality that leads you to leave the EU, send the desperate to Rwanda, demonise the poor, believe Farage is on your side. The mental gymnastics of it all must be exhausting.

So the top jobs will have to lower standards to accommodate lower educational standards with a greatly diminished private sector? Idiocracy becomes real. Excellent.

[President Merkin]

Tom8 said:

So the top jobs will have to lower standards to accommodate lower educational standards with a greatly diminished private sector? Idiocracy becomes real. Excellent.

That is impressive, even by your standards! Can you think of another option?

[isaldiri]

sugerbear said:

Finland also has lower class sizes as well. Private schools have much lower pupil to teach ratios, that is why public eductation is mediocre and I also expect that are quite a lot of MP's who send their kids to the best schools in the area / or private schools so they know they are getting a good education. Even better if they are in an area that has grammer schools, just sling some money at your mediocre child and get them to pass the eleven plus.

The way that the right appears to address issues is just to ignore the issue and keep everything as is becuase they aren't impacted by it.

Right.... so in order to get all that good stuff in Finland with lower class sizes etc, how should the UK fund that government public spending gap in education compared to Finland then? extra revenue raised from VAT on private school fees certainly isn't going to do it.....

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.G...

[thetapeworm]

Sorry it's a question about private schools but with a number of current MPs supposedly putting in letters of no confidence in Sunak how do they then campaign in an election that could potentially (obviously this is unlikely) keep him as PM?

My own MP is already putting out messages of being "an independent voice" with very few visible signs of what party she represents, it feels a little hypocritical.

What's the general feel locally where you are? Have the Conservative and Labour candidates mobilised already or are they relatively quiet?

[President Merkin]

Sway said:

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

Er, I'm not arguing the merits of vat either way in the context you raise. I instead pointed out that pe overall is an anchor on life outcomes for the vast majority, no shortage evidence backs that up. But I think you understood that perfectly well as well as being wholly unbothered by it.

[Otispunkmeyer]

otolith said:

sugerbear said:

Private education does away with the idea of natural selection of the best / brightest across, it just promotes those that can pay for it.

Whereas the state sector promotes those who can afford to live in a catchment area where the demographics are such that the teachers spend more time on education than crowd control, and where resources are not eaten up dragging the low achievers up to passes.

Realistically, generational privilege is very hard to undermine. Even if you were to succeed in killing private schools, parents with more resources would spend money on tutoring and educational materials and experiences and make sure they live in an area with other people like themselves. If you were to somehow stop them paying to educate their kids, they'd save the money and get them on the housing ladder. And short of taking all kids into state care, you will never remove the advantages of children of intelligent people who have physical resources and social capital, value education, and understand how to get on in life.

Bingo.

[Sway]

President Merkin said:

Sway said:

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

Er, I'm not arguing the merits of vat either way in the context you raise. I instead pointed out that pe overall is an anchor on life outcomes for the vast majority, no shortage evidence backs that up. But I think you understood that perfectly well as well as being wholly unbothered by it.

So why are you banging on about PE and social mobility in the context of a discussion on VAT for PE?

[turbobloke]

President Merkin said:

Sway said:

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

Er, I'm not arguing the merits of vat either way in the context you raise. I instead pointed out that pe overall is an anchor on life outcomes for the vast majority, no shortage evidence backs that up. But I think you understood that perfectly well as well as being wholly unbothered by it.

is that in effect saying that life isn't fair in many ways and people should be in a permanent state of bother over any single way? If so, it's ridiculous.

As per many similar discussions, even the totalitarian approach of state-sponsored eugenics and state-run child rearing farms/factories won't "solve" anything. Differences will remain and others wlll emerge. Some will confer advantage. Note the word 'delusion' in eglalitarian delusion.

[President Merkin]

Sway said:

So why are you banging on about PE and social mobility in the context of a discussion on VAT for PE?

An hour ago, you were denying telling me what I can & can't discuss. Make your mind up! For the record, I would be very happy if the pe crowd were to decamp to the long running thread dedicated to the subject, lord knows I've suggested it often enough.

[Talksteer]

Unreal said:

S600BSB said:

blueg33 said:

2 part leaders making speeches yesterday whilst is was raining

One chose to stand outside and get soaked
One chose to stand inside and stay dry

I want a PM who can make sensible choices

Standing in the rain and pretending everything is going well pretty much sums up this government.

Agree. The visuals were shockingly bad for Rishi. Why did they let that happen? Can’t imagine Tony Blair - or even Dave - being put in that position. Just a shambolic way to kick off a campaign. They really are a poor.

If anyone was watching prior, it had stopped raining and presenters had put their umbrellas away. The announcement started late, probably due to the rain. It restarted as Rishi began his speech and that left three options - have a lackey hold an umbrella over him, abandon and restart later or carry on. I think in the circumstances, the vast majority would carry on, SKS included. If you think his decision opened him up to mockery, think what the mockers could have done with the other two options. It's a non-story outside the bubble.

Non-story lol

Rishi pissing wet will be the default catalogue image of him for the election because it tells the story of the lack of hope and pathetic situation of Rishi. The BBC were using wet Rishi as the thumbnail image for the story that no flights to Rwanda would happen before the election (and thus ever).

He's announcing the election and trying to fit it in between showers, it's nominally one of the most important announcements in a parliament. Something that you might want to put a bit of thought into especially as its something the timing of which is entirely within your gift (if you want to do it outdoors wait for a sunnyday).

Cobbled together at the last minute without proper planning or involvement of enough competent people, sounds like his decision to cancel HS2.

[sugerbear]

Sway said:

President Merkin said:

I'm bored of pointing out that 93% of kids are in state school yet they occup a tiny proportion of top jobs. I made the point again this morning & almost immediately, someone piped up saying VAT on pe damages social mobility.

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

Take a look at any private school and look at the resources they have available to them. Do you actually believe that VAT is going to make an ounce of differnce to the outcomes for those schools. In reality it will be an increase on fees of maybe 5% or 10% because they will suck up some of the costs.

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

[Sway]

President Merkin said:

Sway said:

So why are you banging on about PE and social mobility in the context of a discussion on VAT for PE?

An hour ago, you were denying telling me what I can & can't discuss. Make your mind up! For the record, I would be very happy if the pe crowd were to decamp to the long running thread dedicated to the subject, lord knows I've suggested it often enough.

Nope, you'll have to provide a quote of me telling you what you can and can't discuss...

[President Merkin]

turbobloke said:

state-sponsored eugenics and state-run child rearing farms/factories .

Are you ok? This is not normal.

[Caddyshack]

Speed 3 said:

Prolex-UK said:

State schools pay VAT why not private schools

It's amazing how many posters on here don't get the proposed policy and have to be repeatedly corrected.

Its about "customers" (ie parents) paying VAT on fees, not whether the organisation can claim back Input Tax (neither can as they don't currently levy Output Tax, State Schools don't generate sales, Private Schools do).

Exactly this and those people will be voting on these policies.

[turbobloke]

Caddyshack said:

Speed 3 said:

Prolex-UK said:

State schools pay VAT why not private schools

It's amazing how many posters on here don't get the proposed policy and have to be repeatedly corrected.

Its about "customers" (ie parents) paying VAT on fees, not whether the organisation can claim back Input Tax (neither can as they don't currently levy Output Tax, State Schools don't generate sales, Private Schools do).

Exactly this and those people will be voting on these policies.

As ever.

[S600BSB]

Apparently there is another tranche of Tory MPs about to announce that they aren’t, after all, going to stand at the GE.

[otolith]

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

Apparently there is another tranche of Tory MPs about to announce that they aren’t, after all, going to stand at the GE.

These 20+ Labour MPs have already made their announcement. Rolling updates will be made, it says.

https://labourlist.org/2024/05/rolling-list-labour...

[President Merkin]

So. not even halfway through day one & Rishi's been found out planting Tory stooges in a warehouse Q&A, Tory councillors dressed up with Hi Viz, indistuingishable from the actual staff and asked a bunch of Welsh voters if they were looking forward to Euro 2024. He is just so bad at this.