A public sector employee's point of view...
Discussion
Didn't know where to post this but I feel strongly enough to do so because everything I've read so far seems largely one sided. I don't intend to respond to any replies and get into massive debates - this is just about giving my scenario and why I have chosen to strike - I'm not looking for sympathy.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate [***ETA** there is no negotiation going on here] but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.
I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – [***ETA*** I should've said trying to impose, there is no negotiation] - but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave. ***ETA*** HR policy was never optional - the trigger limits have been changed however to those mentioned.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell you that conceptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
Additional edit following 13 pages of responses!!
I did say I wouldn’t reply and this won’t be specific but after such a strong response there are some common themes I felt I wanted to comment on.
Of course I realise I am lucky to have a job in the current climate, of course I do. I have taken the pay freeze on the chin like you those in the private sector (and previously reneged deals) but in relation to the pension switch however I have drawn a line in the sand. Some of my colleagues have drawn their line elsewhere and are working and others haven’t had the conviction to draw any line (cow tow, thank your lucky stars ever so ‘umble). It’s personal choice. For those of you who’ve “lost £1000s” in PPIs you should take that up with your pension provider – I’m taking my issue up with my pension provider. I’m not whinging, I’m relaying my circumstance.
This whole perception of laziness – I can’t comment on the rest of the sector obviously – but in our department we do work hard. My section has very dedicated staff who often go further than the extra mile – we have driven people, innovators, people who utilise skill sets they’re not required to have or use day to day yet employ them to improve our process and customer satisfaction. Some are excel, access and vba experts who produce enhanced, smart databases to allow us to fulfil our roles more efficiently and report to Directorate faster and with greater accuracy – yes this goes against data security guidance but we have no budget and overworked IMS so without their help we simply wouldn’t move forward. Some think outside the box and come up with radical rethinks of ways of working. There is huge pride and goodwill in the department and our employers rely heavily on this. There is no real incentive for staff to do this however apart from their own convictions – they receive the same pay whether they fit this extra work in or just do their core work.
Do I not realise this happens elswhere? Of course this kind of dedication is at least mirrored in the private sector, of course it is, but I’ll wager these kind of contributions are much better financially recognised on that side of the fence. Our guys still do it because they simply want to perform and do their best. The air of private sector worker superiority I’m getting here simply isn’t justified – our guys are every inch as capable, versatile and innovative. If you have experienced sloppy or lazy service in dealings with other parts of the public sector please don’t tar us all with the same brush. I’m happy to see some of my colleagues posting that they are in and working today as it is truly personal choice, but I can’t help feeling they are just helping reinforce the stereotype that civil servants have nothing to do but fk around on the internet all day. That said I note the majority of posters taking the time to read and comment on here appear to be private sector employees – very interesting. Is there bloat in the public sector? There are 1000s of job losses due within the next year in our department – we are up against it as well (from a personal viewpoint C&E did inherit a rather top heavy staff structure when we were taken over by IR). I’ve probably said much more than I should have– who wanted my job? It may be available shortly! And for the nail in the coffin – that phone company – who do you think made the decision on that one? Do you honestly think those at the coalface were remotely happy about that outcome?
The slight irony is my action today effectively reduces my salary career average…I’ve already reduced my pension!
Edit 1/12/11 (note the time of edit before anyone has a dig about using the internet at work!)
Only one person that took me to task over salary has revealed their age, occupation and wage - and that was a fellow Public Sector worker - and yes, it did actually make me sit back and think. To the rest, I can only say sorry, but I don't do anecdotal evidence - how can I seriously consider your "points" with no equivalent data?
PS to be fair taxpayer salaried Clarkson was just Clarkson being Clarkson it's nothing new - some people thought it funny, some didn't (he didn't find his injunction failure funny whereas I did).
Edit 3/12/11 Saturday
Yes, I am reading it all! Must admit I’m still finding the “we pay your wages” argument amusing – technically we ALL pay my wages, even me (we do pay I/T & NI you know) but it’s a circular argument. “You” pay my wages ,“I” go and spend my wages on products and services from the private sector thereby paying your wages (after your shareholders and Directors have taken whatever bonuses/dividends they see fit of course). So then next month you pay me, I go out, spend and pay you, then you pay me again etc. etc. chicken and egg. circular.
I think I can summarise the 25 pages as “I’m a workshy whinger who has a far more comfy existence than anyone in the “heamorrhaging” (good word someone used – I did like that – very visual) private sector at the moment, all of whom are worse off than me and that I don’t realise how good I’ve got it”.
And that’s the thing, after 25 pages and counting I honestly still don’t know how good I’ve supposedly got it over the privateers faced with that kind of “empirical” evidence. A top coat of anecdotal with the broadest brush available. Tell me – demonstrate – you know my situation, show me how much worse off you are – wait, I should just take your word for it? No offence but I’ve taken someone’s word for things before…
The PS never had boom years like Private S. I joined C&E in ’86 whilst mates were going into private sector jobs – within years their wages were spiralling above mine and with better pay rises and potential for bonuses too. PS just trudged on. So whilst it was living it up were the private sector being prudent and putting money aside just in case a bust was round the corner? It seems the government didn’t either. And then it all appears to be the PS fault for being bloated and inefficient. My area brought in £78.5m Tax in 08/09 at a cost of less than a penny per pound – not bad VFM. “Diddums” I think someone said – at least you had a bite of the cherry!! I was waiting to retire for my (Taste the Difference as you’d probably say) cherry and now it seems it’s going a bit Tesco’s Value before I can get to it! You’re out of cherries so everyone should be out of cherries. How the fark did I get onto cherries? Anyway I did learn something from talking to a friend in the private sector – it turned out their pension contribution was multiple times higher than mine but interestingly after I revealed what my pension would be they wouldn’t reveal theirs as it was multiple times higher.
- *ETA*** This isn't about pay rises or freezes either.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate [***ETA** there is no negotiation going on here] but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – [***ETA*** I should've said trying to impose, there is no negotiation] - but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave. ***ETA*** HR policy was never optional - the trigger limits have been changed however to those mentioned.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell you that conceptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
- *ETA*** - No, I was not on the picket line - I wasn't aware you had to do that for strike action to be effective. As I am not being paid today I don't see any issue with using the day as I see fit. I admit I was fully expecting a mauling and you have surely delivered!
Edited by smash on Wednesday 30th November 18:45
Additional edit following 13 pages of responses!!
I did say I wouldn’t reply and this won’t be specific but after such a strong response there are some common themes I felt I wanted to comment on.
Of course I realise I am lucky to have a job in the current climate, of course I do. I have taken the pay freeze on the chin like you those in the private sector (and previously reneged deals) but in relation to the pension switch however I have drawn a line in the sand. Some of my colleagues have drawn their line elsewhere and are working and others haven’t had the conviction to draw any line (cow tow, thank your lucky stars ever so ‘umble). It’s personal choice. For those of you who’ve “lost £1000s” in PPIs you should take that up with your pension provider – I’m taking my issue up with my pension provider. I’m not whinging, I’m relaying my circumstance.
This whole perception of laziness – I can’t comment on the rest of the sector obviously – but in our department we do work hard. My section has very dedicated staff who often go further than the extra mile – we have driven people, innovators, people who utilise skill sets they’re not required to have or use day to day yet employ them to improve our process and customer satisfaction. Some are excel, access and vba experts who produce enhanced, smart databases to allow us to fulfil our roles more efficiently and report to Directorate faster and with greater accuracy – yes this goes against data security guidance but we have no budget and overworked IMS so without their help we simply wouldn’t move forward. Some think outside the box and come up with radical rethinks of ways of working. There is huge pride and goodwill in the department and our employers rely heavily on this. There is no real incentive for staff to do this however apart from their own convictions – they receive the same pay whether they fit this extra work in or just do their core work.
Do I not realise this happens elswhere? Of course this kind of dedication is at least mirrored in the private sector, of course it is, but I’ll wager these kind of contributions are much better financially recognised on that side of the fence. Our guys still do it because they simply want to perform and do their best. The air of private sector worker superiority I’m getting here simply isn’t justified – our guys are every inch as capable, versatile and innovative. If you have experienced sloppy or lazy service in dealings with other parts of the public sector please don’t tar us all with the same brush. I’m happy to see some of my colleagues posting that they are in and working today as it is truly personal choice, but I can’t help feeling they are just helping reinforce the stereotype that civil servants have nothing to do but f
k around on the internet all day. That said I note the majority of posters taking the time to read and comment on here appear to be private sector employees – very interesting. Is there bloat in the public sector? There are 1000s of job losses due within the next year in our department – we are up against it as well (from a personal viewpoint C&E did inherit a rather top heavy staff structure when we were taken over by IR). I’ve probably said much more than I should have– who wanted my job? It may be available shortly! And for the nail in the coffin – that phone company – who do you think made the decision on that one? Do you honestly think those at the coalface were remotely happy about that outcome?The slight irony is my action today effectively reduces my salary career average…I’ve already reduced my pension!
Edited by smash on Thursday 1st December 12:21
Edit 1/12/11 (note the time of edit before anyone has a dig about using the internet at work!)
Only one person that took me to task over salary has revealed their age, occupation and wage - and that was a fellow Public Sector worker - and yes, it did actually make me sit back and think. To the rest, I can only say sorry, but I don't do anecdotal evidence - how can I seriously consider your "points" with no equivalent data?
PS to be fair taxpayer salaried Clarkson was just Clarkson being Clarkson it's nothing new - some people thought it funny, some didn't (he didn't find his injunction failure funny whereas I did).
Edited by smash on Saturday 3rd December 11:23
Edit 3/12/11 Saturday
Yes, I am reading it all! Must admit I’m still finding the “we pay your wages” argument amusing – technically we ALL pay my wages, even me (we do pay I/T & NI you know) but it’s a circular argument. “You” pay my wages ,“I” go and spend my wages on products and services from the private sector thereby paying your wages (after your shareholders and Directors have taken whatever bonuses/dividends they see fit of course). So then next month you pay me, I go out, spend and pay you, then you pay me again etc. etc. chicken and egg. circular.
I think I can summarise the 25 pages as “I’m a workshy whinger who has a far more comfy existence than anyone in the “heamorrhaging” (good word someone used – I did like that – very visual) private sector at the moment, all of whom are worse off than me and that I don’t realise how good I’ve got it”.
And that’s the thing, after 25 pages and counting I honestly still don’t know how good I’ve supposedly got it over the privateers faced with that kind of “empirical” evidence. A top coat of anecdotal with the broadest brush available. Tell me – demonstrate – you know my situation, show me how much worse off you are – wait, I should just take your word for it? No offence but I’ve taken someone’s word for things before…
The PS never had boom years like Private S. I joined C&E in ’86 whilst mates were going into private sector jobs – within years their wages were spiralling above mine and with better pay rises and potential for bonuses too. PS just trudged on. So whilst it was living it up were the private sector being prudent and putting money aside just in case a bust was round the corner? It seems the government didn’t either. And then it all appears to be the PS fault for being bloated and inefficient. My area brought in £78.5m Tax in 08/09 at a cost of less than a penny per pound – not bad VFM. “Diddums” I think someone said – at least you had a bite of the cherry!! I was waiting to retire for my (Taste the Difference as you’d probably say) cherry and now it seems it’s going a bit Tesco’s Value before I can get to it! You’re out of cherries so everyone should be out of cherries. How the fark did I get onto cherries? Anyway I did learn something from talking to a friend in the private sector – it turned out their pension contribution was multiple times higher than mine but interestingly after I revealed what my pension would be they wouldn’t reveal theirs as it was multiple times higher.
Edited by smash on Saturday 3rd December 11:27
smash said:
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave.
Having an HR policy and implementing it should not have been optional. The problems never resolve themsleves, they merely get kicked down the road.It's high time this was done, not only for the sake of the taxpayer, but also for those who do actually work (as opposed to slack off) in the public sector.
I can't contemplate giving my POV on everything you've written, but...
smash said:
...but they’re the ones who’ve seen fit to employ people to help serve the nations needs (and collect those taxes) – you elected them.
Without going into what is right and wrong, my take on the above is that it's a shortcoming of democracy. The people in charge are elected by mostly idiots who do not know where the money comes from. People have been employed to serve the wants of the idiots, often not the needs.What a load of bks OP.
My contracts are constantly being renegotiated, it's called market forces and competition. I either suck it up or I go bust. Renegotiation? fk off!
Whingings like yourself make my piss boil. You have sailed through the recession from 2008 happy with your 5% pay rises blissfully unaware that we have been struggling in the private sector to maintain our houses, businesses and put food on the tables for our family.
Suddenly, you have discovered that actually, you are not getting a pay rise, in fact a pay cut in real terms - welcome to my world, it's hard to swallow isn't it?
You need to understand that responsibility for getting out of this mess is a collective responsibility not just the private sector. You will feel the pain of losing your nice secure 9-5 perhaps. Try living with that feeling for a couple of years.
You also need to understand that the population is living longer and therefore the burden of pensions falls on an ever decreasing working population, so it is only fair you work longer if you are going to live longer. The pot your money comes out of for your pension is paid for by ALL of us, why do you think it unfair that you shouldn't contribute more if we in the private sector are already doing so?
Those on strike today are scum in my opinion.
ks OP.My contracts are constantly being renegotiated, it's called market forces and competition. I either suck it up or I go bust. Renegotiation? f
k off!Whinging
s like yourself make my piss boil. You have sailed through the recession from 2008 happy with your 5% pay rises blissfully unaware that we have been struggling in the private sector to maintain our houses, businesses and put food on the tables for our family. Suddenly, you have discovered that actually, you are not getting a pay rise, in fact a pay cut in real terms - welcome to my world, it's hard to swallow isn't it?
You need to understand that responsibility for getting out of this mess is a collective responsibility not just the private sector. You will feel the pain of losing your nice secure 9-5 perhaps. Try living with that feeling for a couple of years.
You also need to understand that the population is living longer and therefore the burden of pensions falls on an ever decreasing working population, so it is only fair you work longer if you are going to live longer. The pot your money comes out of for your pension is paid for by ALL of us, why do you think it unfair that you shouldn't contribute more if we in the private sector are already doing so?
Those on strike today are scum in my opinion.
I work in the private sector, law, and I do understand your point of view but at this moment times are tough and everyone is suffering.
The public sector have enjoyed a boom, job creation, wage rises, bonus, paid overtime etc. and now, unfortunately, that has come to an end. I feel that some public sector workers don't realise how fortunate they have been.
In my employment, am I guaranteed a pay-rise (even 1%)? No. Am I guaranteed a bonus? No. Do I get a days wage when I'm genuinely ill? No. Do I work more than my contract hours? Yes. Do I get paid for this? No. Do I have a pension that employer contributes to? No. Am I grateful to be employed, yes - very much so.
And above is the argument of public vs. private. The majority of the private sector isn't all high flying business men with money to burn, there are people like you there, struggling to get by each month without any contribution or any guarantees from their employer.
Is it right what the government are doing? Not really, they should honour their promise but if people are going to strike, get on the picket lines - don't take a shopping day as it just shows that you are a mug.
The public sector have enjoyed a boom, job creation, wage rises, bonus, paid overtime etc. and now, unfortunately, that has come to an end. I feel that some public sector workers don't realise how fortunate they have been.
In my employment, am I guaranteed a pay-rise (even 1%)? No. Am I guaranteed a bonus? No. Do I get a days wage when I'm genuinely ill? No. Do I work more than my contract hours? Yes. Do I get paid for this? No. Do I have a pension that employer contributes to? No. Am I grateful to be employed, yes - very much so.
And above is the argument of public vs. private. The majority of the private sector isn't all high flying business men with money to burn, there are people like you there, struggling to get by each month without any contribution or any guarantees from their employer.
Is it right what the government are doing? Not really, they should honour their promise but if people are going to strike, get on the picket lines - don't take a shopping day as it just shows that you are a mug.
Don't forget your 30 days holiday plus your 10.5 public and privilege days. Or, as I like to call it, 2 working months not actually working.
ETA For clarity, in the OP's situation (HMRC site: Generous leave allowance. 22 days increasing to 25 after a year service and 30 days after ten years service.)
ETA For clarity, in the OP's situation (HMRC site: Generous leave allowance. 22 days increasing to 25 after a year service and 30 days after ten years service.)
HMRC Muppet whining about losing 3% in take home pay (it’s not a pay cut, as it's going into your pension fund) and getting upset about negative press over pay and conditions 
Have a look at the abuse the banking sector industry has taken over their remuneration packages
The simple fact of the matter, is that you are a public employee and people DO have a right to analyse and comment on the way that their money is spent by the government.
Nice to see that you’ve gone on strike today, yet have the time away from your picket line to post on piston heads, if you don’t like the terms and conditions of your employment, find another job!
Have a look at the abuse the banking sector industry has taken over their remuneration packages
The simple fact of the matter, is that you are a public employee and people DO have a right to analyse and comment on the way that their money is spent by the government.
Nice to see that you’ve gone on strike today, yet have the time away from your picket line to post on piston heads, if you don’t like the terms and conditions of your employment, find another job!
If only we'd had a prudent chancellor during the boom years we might not be in this position right now.
Two years ago I took a 50% pay cut (part choice for family reasons, part cost-saving exercise). Fortunately during the boom years before that I'd built up reserves rather than spending up to and beyond my income so was able to manage my finances to take the hit. 2 months ago I went back to full time - I could go out and blow the extra on an over-financed car, a 50" plasma, several holidays, etc, but the sensible thing to do is to start rebuilding those reserves.
This whole mess could have been avoided if the governments in the boom years had been prudent and not just gone off spending, spending, spending. To my mind boom years are the time to get public borrowing down rather than the time to extend it to record levels.
OP - I'm sorry you now need to reconsider your pension and retirement plans, but I know exactly who I would be blaming in your position.
Two years ago I took a 50% pay cut (part choice for family reasons, part cost-saving exercise). Fortunately during the boom years before that I'd built up reserves rather than spending up to and beyond my income so was able to manage my finances to take the hit. 2 months ago I went back to full time - I could go out and blow the extra on an over-financed car, a 50" plasma, several holidays, etc, but the sensible thing to do is to start rebuilding those reserves.
This whole mess could have been avoided if the governments in the boom years had been prudent and not just gone off spending, spending, spending. To my mind boom years are the time to get public borrowing down rather than the time to extend it to record levels.
OP - I'm sorry you now need to reconsider your pension and retirement plans, but I know exactly who I would be blaming in your position.
I used to work for a company, where I got a decent pension, had good prospects, and a decent salary. However, the company hit hard times. In the 7 years I worked for them, my pension got slashed, I got pay rises lower than inflation – despite a promotion, and didn’t get a bonus despite exceeding the trigger point. Our employee "perks" also got slashed. This was during the "boom" years too (for everyone, except the car industry).
That didn't seem fair, but it was preferable to have a job.
For the record, I moved somewhere else. I pay a large proportion of my salary into my pension to help save for the future, as I doubt I'll get one from the state.
Not fair, is it? Welcome to the world.
That didn't seem fair, but it was preferable to have a job.
For the record, I moved somewhere else. I pay a large proportion of my salary into my pension to help save for the future, as I doubt I'll get one from the state.
Not fair, is it? Welcome to the world.
Here's the problem -
1. The Govt spends more than it earns; the last govt bridged that gap with borrowing, the current govt is doing the same but is trying to eliminate the deficit over time; if we try to bridge the gap by increasing taxes, it drives wealth-creators away and reduces growth; if we carry on borrowing we either have to let inflation rip to reduce the debt, or we pass on the burden of our own profligacy to our children and grand-children;
2. There are too many public-sector workers - Winky reduced structural unemployment by creating 1m public-sector jobs that weren't previously required - these all have a pension; yes these people pay tax, but for every £100 the govt pays them it only gets back £20 in tax - see the problem?
3. people are living longer, so current pension commitments are unaffordable;
4. we are in a major financial crisis which may get catastrophically worse in 2012 - there is an urgent need to reduce spending in areas which do not create economic growth;
5. Winky not only magicked up an extra 1m public-sector jobs, he also increased public sector pay so that the average public-sector wage is now £3k more than the private-sector one - the old bargain of "get paid less but get a better pension" has been ripped-up; in the private sector, you will get paid less and get no pension or a money-purchase scheme with an unknowable end result;
6. Everyone is suffering - people are getting laid-off, salaries frozen, overtime scrapped, bonuses disappearing - why should the public sector be an exception?
You don't have to stay where you are; a chap of your experience should be able to walk into any large accountancy firm; provided, of course, they are recruiting. Many accountants I know are having a rough time. Funny that.
1. The Govt spends more than it earns; the last govt bridged that gap with borrowing, the current govt is doing the same but is trying to eliminate the deficit over time; if we try to bridge the gap by increasing taxes, it drives wealth-creators away and reduces growth; if we carry on borrowing we either have to let inflation rip to reduce the debt, or we pass on the burden of our own profligacy to our children and grand-children;
2. There are too many public-sector workers - Winky reduced structural unemployment by creating 1m public-sector jobs that weren't previously required - these all have a pension; yes these people pay tax, but for every £100 the govt pays them it only gets back £20 in tax - see the problem?
3. people are living longer, so current pension commitments are unaffordable;
4. we are in a major financial crisis which may get catastrophically worse in 2012 - there is an urgent need to reduce spending in areas which do not create economic growth;
5. Winky not only magicked up an extra 1m public-sector jobs, he also increased public sector pay so that the average public-sector wage is now £3k more than the private-sector one - the old bargain of "get paid less but get a better pension" has been ripped-up; in the private sector, you will get paid less and get no pension or a money-purchase scheme with an unknowable end result;
6. Everyone is suffering - people are getting laid-off, salaries frozen, overtime scrapped, bonuses disappearing - why should the public sector be an exception?
You don't have to stay where you are; a chap of your experience should be able to walk into any large accountancy firm; provided, of course, they are recruiting. Many accountants I know are having a rough time. Funny that.
Why do public sector workers think they should be in a protective bubble which stops them from being affected by what has happened.
There has been a financial cock-up. Many employees have had to accept pay freezes, pay cuts, they have even lost their jobs, and whole business have closed.
How come public sector workers are immune to all this?
When you go for a job you often sign a contact of employment which describes what each party expects of one another, but st happens, and those conditions have had to change in order to survive.
It isn't nice to have pay and other benefits you are working for reduced or taken away, I agree with that, but I don't understand why these striking workers think they are special as to not be affected by what has happened.
There has been a financial cock-up. Many employees have had to accept pay freezes, pay cuts, they have even lost their jobs, and whole business have closed.
How come public sector workers are immune to all this?
When you go for a job you often sign a contact of employment which describes what each party expects of one another, but s
t happens, and those conditions have had to change in order to survive.It isn't nice to have pay and other benefits you are working for reduced or taken away, I agree with that, but I don't understand why these striking workers think they are special as to not be affected by what has happened.
smash said:
I realise that taxation of the private sector “funds” the government – so yes a tiny, incey, wincey bit of your tax could be said to pay towards my wage indirectly (thank you)
Let's look at this the other way. Let's say, on average, each of us here pay £6k in tax per year. That means that ALL the tax from FIVE of us here pay for just ONE of you. Don't try to trivialise our contribution by saying it's a "tiny, incey, wincey bit of your tax".Pay freeze? Welcome to our world. Next year you'll be getting a 1% rise? We won't, ours will still be frozen or even reduced.
Pension cut - from something very good to rather good. You are NOT hard done by. Most of us probably have something like 7/8% contribution per year (employers and employee), what %age is yours? Also, many private workers don't get ANY pension contributions from their employers. Also, as I understand it, your pensions are guaranteed (i.e. you will get X amount p/a). If the economy is doing crap, private pensions are not, they will be less.
The reality is, the country cannot afford all the pensions (this will get a LOT worse in years to come, we all live longer etc.). Add to that the hundreds of thousands of extra public sector employees brought in over the last 10/15 years. Where does the money come from to pay all their pensions.
Don't get me wrong, I know it's not nice (again, welcome to our world) but life is like that. At the end of the day, there is the financial realities. This isn't about what is "right" to pay or "fair" (to whom!) to pay, it's about what we CAN AFFORD to pay. If you feel your pension won't be enough when you retire then do what we all have to do, invest/save more.
podwin said:
Why do public sector workers think they should be in a protective bubble which stops them from being affected by what has happened.
Because they and all the other state dependants have been brainwashed by politicians, media and the unions for decades that nanny will look after them.DanielJames said:
I'm a public sector worker.
I'm at work today.
Good man, plenty of other PS workers doing likewise - that's the spirit.I'm at work today.
I am obliged, due to the very confidential nature of my inside information with regard to the OP's employer, to bite my tongue on this thread. Suffice to say sanity is finally returning to the Mad Hatter's Tea Party, but it has a way to go yet.
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