Town and (some) City Centres- Terminal Decline?
Discussion
It's obvious that many town and city centres are struggling, particularly on the retail front, and have been for a long time. Causes have been discussed at length before, but perhaps not as much emphasis is placed on solutions, or even what the future of these places should look like.
Are many of these areas resigned to a kind of "managed decline", with only token efforts made/possible to prevent even further degeneration? Do more drastic policies of rate reduction need to be looked at? Are there examples of councils that have got these issues right, and managed to address decline?
It seems like high street health can only be strong in very prosperous areas, or tourist honeypots.
Perhaps we should rethink out view of what town and some city centres should look like and what purpose they should serve, but again, where are the examples of a successful transition being made (other than in large cities, which regenerate and change purpose all the time)?
I can sense parking charges and access being blamed already and this may be a cause at times, but plenty of towns have relatively cheap parking and are very easy to get to by road. The issues are a lot deeper and more systemic than parking that is on the pricey side. Derby for example has recently closed one of its (large, multi-storey) car parks due to low demand.
Are many of these areas resigned to a kind of "managed decline", with only token efforts made/possible to prevent even further degeneration? Do more drastic policies of rate reduction need to be looked at? Are there examples of councils that have got these issues right, and managed to address decline?
It seems like high street health can only be strong in very prosperous areas, or tourist honeypots.
Perhaps we should rethink out view of what town and some city centres should look like and what purpose they should serve, but again, where are the examples of a successful transition being made (other than in large cities, which regenerate and change purpose all the time)?
I can sense parking charges and access being blamed already and this may be a cause at times, but plenty of towns have relatively cheap parking and are very easy to get to by road. The issues are a lot deeper and more systemic than parking that is on the pricey side. Derby for example has recently closed one of its (large, multi-storey) car parks due to low demand.
I've no answers, per se, but it strikes me on looking at my own city centre that it's not the sort of place I want to take my five year old. So I don't. But a city centre not frequented by fundamentally decent people is one that much easier to fully colonise by the sorts of people you'd cross the road to avoid.
Something needs to be done, for sure. But I don't know exactly what, other than it's likely to be a multi-faceted solution rather than any one silver bullet. For a start and given arresting the situation will inevitably take time, I'd look for significantly enhanced and more visible policing. That might give some confidence in the interim, and serve to dissuade those we'd prefer not to encounter.
Something needs to be done, for sure. But I don't know exactly what, other than it's likely to be a multi-faceted solution rather than any one silver bullet. For a start and given arresting the situation will inevitably take time, I'd look for significantly enhanced and more visible policing. That might give some confidence in the interim, and serve to dissuade those we'd prefer not to encounter.
Edited by iphonedyou on Monday 23 September 16:40
I think the majority of issues comes down to online ordering, you only have to looks at the acres of warehousing popping up to see what's going on. It's not helped by councils milking customers. I think it's going to be very hard to get people out and about again when you can sit in your onesie and get everything brought to your door. More so if pay per mile is brought in.
Councils need only to look at out of town retail parks to see how they can stop the terminal decline, who knew giving free parking next to lots of shops would make the shopping area busy?
Councils need only to look at out of town retail parks to see how they can stop the terminal decline, who knew giving free parking next to lots of shops would make the shopping area busy?
iphonedyou said:
I've no answers, per se, but it strikes me on looking at my own city centre that it's not the sort of place I want to take my five year old. So I don't. But a city centre not frequented by fundamentally decent people is one that much easier to fully colonise by the sorts of people you'd cross the road to avoid.
Something needs to be done, for sure. But I don't know exactly what, other than it's likely to be a multi-faceted solution rather than any one silver bullet.
Addressing anti social behaviour and improving safety/perception of safety is a good place to start. Some of these places trigger a sense of foreboding, and that's in the daytime...Something needs to be done, for sure. But I don't know exactly what, other than it's likely to be a multi-faceted solution rather than any one silver bullet.
nuyorican said:
I think the general idea is to turn city/town centres into residential areas primarily rather than shopping. Blocks of flats above coffee shops.
This has been proposed for a local town centre near me, existing dilapidated shopping precincts demolished and replaced with housing (flats).However I would rather cynically ask: is this really for the benefit of all locals and will it provide a town centre that they really want? Or is there simply no local authority cash so rejuvenation has to involve building heaps of mostly lettable flats? Do people really want to live above a Greggs/Subway/Kebab shop in a formerly (and possibly still) deprived town centre?
James6112 said:
My closest town is finished.
Moved here in 1996, a few times there were grand plans & demos.
In the meantime, other close towns rebuilt & are the places to go.
My town started demolition.
Then covid happened!
Used to be a regular at nice cafe / restaurants in town.
1.5 miles away, not been this year.
Shopping online, last weekend dragged around another one that has actual shops for the better half!
Would be good to name some names if you’re going to comment on places, otherwise there’s no context … Moved here in 1996, a few times there were grand plans & demos.
In the meantime, other close towns rebuilt & are the places to go.
My town started demolition.
Then covid happened!
Used to be a regular at nice cafe / restaurants in town.
1.5 miles away, not been this year.
Shopping online, last weekend dragged around another one that has actual shops for the better half!
As others have said, it’s parking, out-of-town parks and the kinda places some city centres have been allowed to become that stops footfall.
Town centre shopping is finding itself in a no-man's land that i don't think it will recover from.
I went into the centre of my nearest town last weekend as I wanted a pair of jeans. Nothing special, just a pair of regular blue jeans, and I thought that it would be easier going to town where I could have a look rather than buying online where you don't know what you are getting or if they will fit.
So I went to (in no particular order): Primark, River Island, Marks & Spencer, White Stuff and another shop i can't remember the name of.
Not one had a single pair of blue jeans in my size (32 Regular, in case you thought it was some rare or special requirement).
So now I will have to buy online and hope they fit.
And the result is that I probably won't go into town at all for clothes in the future, as it was such a waste of time.
So shops don't hold stock as it is uneconomic, destroying the one advantage they had over online suppliers. So more people shop online, meaning less stock and the spiral of decline continues.
Basically, if your town centre isn't virtually dead yet, just give it a few years and it will be on its knees with the council desperately trying to prop up some semblance of business to maintain their carpark and commercial rates income.
TBF the rot started when they started allowing out-of-town shopping centres to be built. You lose one big store and the rest followed it out of the high street to a location with better parking and access.
There is some sort of vague hope that town centres will become cultural centres, with coffee shops, galleries and event spaces, but I can't see these working in any provincial towns. It will be a collection of cheap residential flats over empty shops, turkish barbers and bookies.
I went into the centre of my nearest town last weekend as I wanted a pair of jeans. Nothing special, just a pair of regular blue jeans, and I thought that it would be easier going to town where I could have a look rather than buying online where you don't know what you are getting or if they will fit.
So I went to (in no particular order): Primark, River Island, Marks & Spencer, White Stuff and another shop i can't remember the name of.
Not one had a single pair of blue jeans in my size (32 Regular, in case you thought it was some rare or special requirement).
So now I will have to buy online and hope they fit.
And the result is that I probably won't go into town at all for clothes in the future, as it was such a waste of time.
So shops don't hold stock as it is uneconomic, destroying the one advantage they had over online suppliers. So more people shop online, meaning less stock and the spiral of decline continues.
Basically, if your town centre isn't virtually dead yet, just give it a few years and it will be on its knees with the council desperately trying to prop up some semblance of business to maintain their carpark and commercial rates income.
TBF the rot started when they started allowing out-of-town shopping centres to be built. You lose one big store and the rest followed it out of the high street to a location with better parking and access.
There is some sort of vague hope that town centres will become cultural centres, with coffee shops, galleries and event spaces, but I can't see these working in any provincial towns. It will be a collection of cheap residential flats over empty shops, turkish barbers and bookies.
Olivera said:
This has been proposed for a local town centre near me, existing dilapidated shopping precincts demolished and replaced with housing (flats).
However I would rather cynically ask: is this really for the benefit of all locals and will it provide a town centre that they really want? Or is there simply no local authority cash so rejuvenation has to involve building heaps of mostly lettable flats? Do people really want to live above a Greggs/Subway/Kebab shop in a formerly (and possibly still) deprived town centre?
Seems like a good way to build stacks of much needed social housing to me! Obviously many of the social housing ‘types’ will make it unbearable for the decent folks but that’s no different to when they’re dumped into social housing on new build estates amongst people who’ve actually paid for their houses. They’d just have to ensure they take steps to prevent it turning into a modern slum. However I would rather cynically ask: is this really for the benefit of all locals and will it provide a town centre that they really want? Or is there simply no local authority cash so rejuvenation has to involve building heaps of mostly lettable flats? Do people really want to live above a Greggs/Subway/Kebab shop in a formerly (and possibly still) deprived town centre?
From what I see, successful town and city centres around the world are pretty sociable places. People spend a lot of time socialising with friends and family. But the traditional British social hub of the pub is dying a death, the youth of today are more solitary than ever (on video games) and many can’t afford to socialise even if they wanted to. A third of youngsters (I read it somewhere) don’t even bother trying to have relationships or sex; they’d rather sit at home on their PlayStation.
Personally I blame British weather, it’s no coincidence that on a nice summers day even the s
ttiest town is lively and full of people enjoying the weather. Don’t know what the solution is but town centres need to move away from retail to residential, which might then bring retail back in.
.:ian:. said:
Winchester always seems pretty busy.
Plenty of parking, short stay if you want to nip in, or £3 for all day in one of the 5(!) park and rides.
Free on Sunday and BH.
My nearest town, New Alresford, also seems pretty busy.
I guess these count as both prosperous and touristy though.
Haven't been to Winchester, but good that it's thriving.Plenty of parking, short stay if you want to nip in, or £3 for all day in one of the 5(!) park and rides.
Free on Sunday and BH.
My nearest town, New Alresford, also seems pretty busy.
I guess these count as both prosperous and touristy though.
The conversion to residential point is interesting, and is what I believed would happen, too. As has been mentioned though, who is going to want to live in the middle of a deprived town centre amidst bookies, vape stores and barbers? The safety and public realm aspects have got to be addressed first, otherwise we may end up exacerbating the decline with certain segments of society only wanting to live there.
boyse7en said:
TBF the rot started when they started allowing out-of-town shopping centres to be built. You lose one big store and the rest followed it out of the high street to a location with better parking and access.
Yup, I agree. Before we moved to the US, we lived close to a few provincial towns and they were in the process of dying. Its a real shame to see. But the rot started a long time ago. So many have been cursed with the concrete hell that seemed to be the preferred architecture from the 60's and 70's. Now they are cursed with poor transport links, lack of reasonable parking and access and shops that are shifting away to out of town or large malls.I see the same here in the US too, if not more exaggerated. Small towns and cities have to come up with their own identity or risk dying. Even the malls are failing as people just dont go there any more. They have to be something relevant, interesting and accessible - and not just discount stores. Also, where people live and what they need has also shifted. I'll take San Francisco as an example - there was a lot of press made around the closure of the Target store in downtown SF. The headlines read that it was dying and that this was the final nail in the coffin. In reality, Target was on life support there. No one went there except people who worked nearby who had to grab something quickly or you were a tourist and forgot something. It in no way justified a full-on supermarket. Small convenience store? Hell yeah. People dont really live locally to it, the shoppers have shifted and change needs to happen. This is a very specific example from what I have seen, but it goes back to the out-of-town stuff. If its easier, simpler and more convenient, people will use it!
Things shift and change and the towns and cities that can adapt will continue to thrive. Those who wont, or more likely cant, wont. Use it or lose it. Its pretty brutal and this has been a long term trend.
I’ve thought for many years that the answer for medium towns is to make them smaller. If you take Chippenham near me, there are plenty of shops, some of which are independent and interesting, but they are spread out across quite an area with empty / charity / pound / generally crap shops intermingled. There’s also limited parking, again spread out across lots of small carparks so it’s easy for the first couple you try to be full.
If the tawdry shopping centre in the middle was torn down along with all the unpleasant 70s bits of the high street and turned into leisure space, and a good amount of the peripheral areas cleared, you’d bring more businesses into a better centre, with opportunity for proper parking on the edge. Completing the bypass that was started in the 90s would then take a lot of through traffic away.
Of course, this would be hugely costly and controversial but I think any real solution will be. Right now, Tesco has moved out of its town centre large store which was in a decrepit, low-footfall shopping centre with poor parking, poor access and little else close by. People are bemoaning its demise burn would inevitably protest the actual demolition of the site.
Another major part of the issue is that Bath, which is vibrant, busy and beautiful, is 10 minutes away on the train, so realistically Chippenham is doomed to be a dreary dump.
If the tawdry shopping centre in the middle was torn down along with all the unpleasant 70s bits of the high street and turned into leisure space, and a good amount of the peripheral areas cleared, you’d bring more businesses into a better centre, with opportunity for proper parking on the edge. Completing the bypass that was started in the 90s would then take a lot of through traffic away.
Of course, this would be hugely costly and controversial but I think any real solution will be. Right now, Tesco has moved out of its town centre large store which was in a decrepit, low-footfall shopping centre with poor parking, poor access and little else close by. People are bemoaning its demise burn would inevitably protest the actual demolition of the site.
Another major part of the issue is that Bath, which is vibrant, busy and beautiful, is 10 minutes away on the train, so realistically Chippenham is doomed to be a dreary dump.
Fusion777 said:
I can sense parking charges and access being blamed already and this may be a cause at times, but plenty of towns have relatively cheap parking and are very easy to get to by road. The issues are a lot deeper and more systemic than parking that is on the pricey side. Derby for example has recently closed one of its (large, multi-storey) car parks due to low demand.
It's under £2ph for Kingston (London) which isn't expensive but I refuse to pay and CBA to walk in from wherever it's free (20-30 minutes). Easier to either order online or visit a retail park or a smaller town with free parking within 10 minutes walk (Tolworth, New Malden). Consequently, I haven't been shopping in Kingston in a decade. I do occasionally still eat there in the evenings when it's free to park with a 10 minute walk.I wondered if I'd use public transport if it were free to get in. But tbh f
k that. Waiting in the rain and cold, having to sit next to stinky people listening to their phones. I'd rather drive somewhere or order online.Our town just lost of one its best Asian restaurants. Always busy, great food, great location.
Had to close down because the landlords just kept jacking the rates. Now got a very large empty unit that basically no one will want. I don't understand it really. Unless they're going to chop it up into smaller units. But its not a place that is frequented by a lot of passing foot traffic, There isn't really even a car park. But the restaurant was that good people made an effort to go out of their way to eat there and there was a roaring take-away trade on top. They're not going to do that if its chopped up for a load betting shops, Turkish barbers and charity outfits. The actual town centre just down the road has plenty of those already.
Happily I think Notts is quite healthy? seems to be a lot of development going on and every time I've been on a weekend the places like Victoria Centre are packed. The major blot on the landscape is the semi-destroyed Broadmarsh centre, but they seem to be slowly making it nice again. Certainly a lot of people walking around anyway, whether they're just out for something to do or actually spending money is a different matter.
Had to close down because the landlords just kept jacking the rates. Now got a very large empty unit that basically no one will want. I don't understand it really. Unless they're going to chop it up into smaller units. But its not a place that is frequented by a lot of passing foot traffic, There isn't really even a car park. But the restaurant was that good people made an effort to go out of their way to eat there and there was a roaring take-away trade on top. They're not going to do that if its chopped up for a load betting shops, Turkish barbers and charity outfits. The actual town centre just down the road has plenty of those already.
Happily I think Notts is quite healthy? seems to be a lot of development going on and every time I've been on a weekend the places like Victoria Centre are packed. The major blot on the landscape is the semi-destroyed Broadmarsh centre, but they seem to be slowly making it nice again. Certainly a lot of people walking around anyway, whether they're just out for something to do or actually spending money is a different matter.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 23 September 17:48
miniman said:
I’ve thought for many years that the answer for medium towns is to make them smaller. If you take Chippenham near me, there are plenty of shops, some of which are independent and interesting, but they are spread out across quite an area with empty / charity / pound / generally crap shops intermingled. There’s also limited parking, again spread out across lots of small carparks so it’s easy for the first couple you try to be full.
If the tawdry shopping centre in the middle was torn down along with all the unpleasant 70s bits of the high street and turned into leisure space, and a good amount of the peripheral areas cleared, you’d bring more businesses into a better centre, with opportunity for proper parking on the edge. Completing the bypass that was started in the 90s would then take a lot of through traffic away.
Of course, this would be hugely costly and controversial but I think any real solution will be. Right now, Tesco has moved out of its town centre large store which was in a decrepit, low-footfall shopping centre with poor parking, poor access and little else close by. People are bemoaning its demise burn would inevitably protest the actual demolition of the site.
Another major part of the issue is that Bath, which is vibrant, busy and beautiful, is 10 minutes away on the train, so realistically Chippenham is doomed to be a dreary dump.
Yeh, I think it’s a historical problem that our town centres are all retail and office based with no one really living in them. Surrounded by the poorer inner suburbs. With both retail and office working both declining our (already grey) town centres became lifeless. If the tawdry shopping centre in the middle was torn down along with all the unpleasant 70s bits of the high street and turned into leisure space, and a good amount of the peripheral areas cleared, you’d bring more businesses into a better centre, with opportunity for proper parking on the edge. Completing the bypass that was started in the 90s would then take a lot of through traffic away.
Of course, this would be hugely costly and controversial but I think any real solution will be. Right now, Tesco has moved out of its town centre large store which was in a decrepit, low-footfall shopping centre with poor parking, poor access and little else close by. People are bemoaning its demise burn would inevitably protest the actual demolition of the site.
Another major part of the issue is that Bath, which is vibrant, busy and beautiful, is 10 minutes away on the train, so realistically Chippenham is doomed to be a dreary dump.
Towns/cities need to adapt and let go of some of the retail and office areas for residential in my opinion, creating more localised clusters of amenities.
Otispunkmeyer said:
Happily I think Notts is quite healthy? seems to be a lot of development going on and every time I've been on a weekend the places like Victoria Centre are packed. The major blot on the landscape is the semi-destroyed Broadmarsh centre, but they seem to be slowly making it nice again. Certainly a lot of people walking around anyway, whether they're just out for something to do or actually spending money is a different matter.
Nottingham is big enough (8th largest urban area in the UK, nearly 763,000 in the 2021 census) that it can weather the worst of the storm, though Listergate is a shadow of its former self, and Bridlesmith Gate and Exchange Walk are looking worser for wear, too. I think once a city is up to the 350k/400k mark in population, it becomes self sustaining without too much issue. Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 23 September 17:48
A settlement obviously doesn't need to be anywhere near this size though if it's naturally prosperous or has lots of tourism (Bath, York, Oxford, Cambridge, and so on).
boyse7en said:
Town centre shopping is finding itself in a no-man's land that i don't think it will recover from.
I went into the centre of my nearest town last weekend as I wanted a pair of jeans. Nothing special, just a pair of regular blue jeans, and I thought that it would be easier going to town where I could have a look rather than buying online where you don't know what you are getting or if they will fit.
So I went to (in no particular order): Primark, River Island, Marks & Spencer, White Stuff and another shop i can't remember the name of.
Not one had a single pair of blue jeans in my size (32 Regular, in case you thought it was some rare or special requirement).
So now I will have to buy online and hope they fit.
And the result is that I probably won't go into town at all for clothes in the future, as it was such a waste of time.
So shops don't hold stock as it is uneconomic, destroying the one advantage they had over online suppliers. So more people shop online, meaning less stock and the spiral of decline continues.
Basically, if your town centre isn't virtually dead yet, just give it a few years and it will be on its knees with the council desperately trying to prop up some semblance of business to maintain their carpark and commercial rates income.
TBF the rot started when they started allowing out-of-town shopping centres to be built. You lose one big store and the rest followed it out of the high street to a location with better parking and access.
There is some sort of vague hope that town centres will become cultural centres, with coffee shops, galleries and event spaces, but I can't see these working in any provincial towns. It will be a collection of cheap residential flats over empty shops, turkish barbers and bookies.
Agree on the non-stocking stupidity.I went into the centre of my nearest town last weekend as I wanted a pair of jeans. Nothing special, just a pair of regular blue jeans, and I thought that it would be easier going to town where I could have a look rather than buying online where you don't know what you are getting or if they will fit.
So I went to (in no particular order): Primark, River Island, Marks & Spencer, White Stuff and another shop i can't remember the name of.
Not one had a single pair of blue jeans in my size (32 Regular, in case you thought it was some rare or special requirement).
So now I will have to buy online and hope they fit.
And the result is that I probably won't go into town at all for clothes in the future, as it was such a waste of time.
So shops don't hold stock as it is uneconomic, destroying the one advantage they had over online suppliers. So more people shop online, meaning less stock and the spiral of decline continues.
Basically, if your town centre isn't virtually dead yet, just give it a few years and it will be on its knees with the council desperately trying to prop up some semblance of business to maintain their carpark and commercial rates income.
TBF the rot started when they started allowing out-of-town shopping centres to be built. You lose one big store and the rest followed it out of the high street to a location with better parking and access.
There is some sort of vague hope that town centres will become cultural centres, with coffee shops, galleries and event spaces, but I can't see these working in any provincial towns. It will be a collection of cheap residential flats over empty shops, turkish barbers and bookies.
Argos do this. Oh but you can order for next day… but Amazon will deliver next day.
The whole idea you’d go out to Argos was so you’d get it there and then!
Clothes similar, stupid sizes or none of the popular stuff left.
Plus largely I’ve heard they do short runs and if it sells well they order more. But you can then find they have crap sizes left of popular stuff, but might never make more.
Then the quality can be really poor. And it’s hard to gauge that in s shop, vs buying online and taking 20 things back for a massive refund!
My 2p is that once the high street declines, online will start to get very expensive as the overheads begin to be realised.
This is already beginning.
Then slowly but surely, perhaps after councils actually encourage enterprise/shoppers, small agile businesses who are decent, rather than dinosaur brands, will come in offering good products and services and getting good customers.
As it stands today many high streets are just big brand cash churn machines selling trash any way.
I go to Ilkley and Harrogate and both still feel pretty ok to me, but buying something simple like a nice pair of trousers or jeans was indeed bloody hard!
Its a combination of issues. Many will blame business rates, however thats a red herring. You didn't notice retailers complaining about rates when they were competing to pay record rents. If rents come down so will rates.
Most landlords dont want empty shops as they have to pay rates on the empty units but they will want a tenant that has some prospects of remaining in place for a number of years.
The issue with retail is that since the 1980's new retail shopping centres have been built, there has been a big expansion in out of town retail. We as consumers dont have more money to spend in shops just because new retail space is built. Therefore what should have happened is that as new retail was built the old space should have been demolished redveloped. Instead we just ended up with over supply.
Then add in online shopping and covid to push more demand for online you have the perfect storm. We now have the position where people are returning to the High Street to shop however at the same time stores are closing as leases are ending and retailers arent taking the risks, or senior management wants to cut costs, and increase their bonus. In addition retailers operate a minimum stock level in any physical shop so as a consumer you cant get what you want even if you go in store.
Classic example nearby town one secondary school requires students in Lower Sixth to wear blue suits, those in Upper Sixth to wear grey suits, Therefore big demand in the summer for suits. Local M & S knew these so stocked up. This year the computerised stock system at M & S says no to the additional orders. So parents can't buy suits there!
The outcome of all of this is that people just give up shopping at all!
Most landlords dont want empty shops as they have to pay rates on the empty units but they will want a tenant that has some prospects of remaining in place for a number of years.
The issue with retail is that since the 1980's new retail shopping centres have been built, there has been a big expansion in out of town retail. We as consumers dont have more money to spend in shops just because new retail space is built. Therefore what should have happened is that as new retail was built the old space should have been demolished redveloped. Instead we just ended up with over supply.
Then add in online shopping and covid to push more demand for online you have the perfect storm. We now have the position where people are returning to the High Street to shop however at the same time stores are closing as leases are ending and retailers arent taking the risks, or senior management wants to cut costs, and increase their bonus. In addition retailers operate a minimum stock level in any physical shop so as a consumer you cant get what you want even if you go in store.
Classic example nearby town one secondary school requires students in Lower Sixth to wear blue suits, those in Upper Sixth to wear grey suits, Therefore big demand in the summer for suits. Local M & S knew these so stocked up. This year the computerised stock system at M & S says no to the additional orders. So parents can't buy suits there!
The outcome of all of this is that people just give up shopping at all!
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