Are court warrants a useful protection?
Discussion
The latest Crime and Policing Bill would allow Police to enter and search a home without obtaining a warrant first.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5269qn5jvo
I suppose just scrapping the need for Court Warrants is probably cheaper and easier than having an efficient Criminal Justice system that could quickly issue warrants.
Thin end of the wedge, or a necessity to fight what is actually a real plague on our streets right now?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5269qn5jvo
I suppose just scrapping the need for Court Warrants is probably cheaper and easier than having an efficient Criminal Justice system that could quickly issue warrants.
Thin end of the wedge, or a necessity to fight what is actually a real plague on our streets right now?
I’d say it’s probably a reasonable concession, on balance, for something like rapid retrieval of a tracked item. Yes, you could argue that police should need a warrant, but realistically how often is that request being properly scrutinised or rejected? I suspect it’s nearly always a tickbox exercise which serves only to delay things. The safeguards I’d be looking for would be around the police still needing a warrant to undertake any other, non-related activities once they were in, which is a potential sticking point I suspect.
All of that being said, how often are police going to have spare resources to go battering doors down to find a nicked mobile phone?
All of that being said, how often are police going to have spare resources to go battering doors down to find a nicked mobile phone?
vikingaero said:
Southerner said:
All of that being said, how often are police going to have spare resources to go battering doors down to find a nicked mobile phone?
I suspect that in many cases, battering one door down to chase a single live mobile will find a treasure trove of plenty more phones.Will that include trackers on bikes, motorbikes, and other vehicles/ items such as Plant and cars?
Some discussion on the TV yesterday about Police refusing to assist when a stolen bike/car could be traced to a particular garage/caravan site. That would seem madness to me, but not surprising...
Some discussion on the TV yesterday about Police refusing to assist when a stolen bike/car could be traced to a particular garage/caravan site. That would seem madness to me, but not surprising...
Rivenink said:
Is getting a search warrant currently a significant barrier to the police pursuing these cases?
I believe it is yes, I've heard of cases where somebody's bike was tracked to a flat, officers knew which it was likely in, but because the "circle of accuracy" covered adjacent flats and those above and below the warrant was rejected because it wasn't precise enough.Question is whether it's right that police could see the same data and be able to pick which door(s) to bust and houses to turn over.
Gareth79 said:
Question is whether it's right that police could see the same data and be able to pick which door(s) to bust and houses to turn over.
If the Police think there may be a stolen item in my house they're welcome to have a look around. They don't need to kick the door in, I'll let them in and make them a coffee.Rivenink said:
Is getting a search warrant currently a significant barrier to the police pursuing these cases?
Lot of paperwork to fill in to justify it, get it signed off and then go to court. It could end up taking a few hours of work.So cutting it out would save time....
But is it going to become the new ' I thought I smelt cannabis'...
The Police already have plenty of powers to enter property to arrest and search without a warrant, and yes they can already go to a Magistrate 24/7 and get a warrant ... so the powers are there
The problem is being sure that the phone you are looking for is where the "find my" app is saying it is
This is increasingly difficult in built up areas and exacerbated by blocks of flats and houses split into bed sits .. each one being legally a seperate dwelling with its own legal identity
Probably the best way to illustrate the reason why the police don't just "kick the doors" is a serious of screen shots I've just taken
I placed three iPhones, one mine, one my sons, and one my wife's on the kitchen table at the rear left hand side of a largish detached two story house. All three phones are connected to the same network
Over a couple of minutes I screenshotted their locations on my "find my" app
As you can see on none of the screens are all three phones together or even showing in the same building, one even shows potentially in a neighbouring detached building
That is the problem, now imagine that the building is a 6 story block of flats, or a HMO
How many searches are the Police going to do, merely saying the police don't need justification changes nothing
The problem is being sure that the phone you are looking for is where the "find my" app is saying it is
This is increasingly difficult in built up areas and exacerbated by blocks of flats and houses split into bed sits .. each one being legally a seperate dwelling with its own legal identity
Probably the best way to illustrate the reason why the police don't just "kick the doors" is a serious of screen shots I've just taken
I placed three iPhones, one mine, one my sons, and one my wife's on the kitchen table at the rear left hand side of a largish detached two story house. All three phones are connected to the same network
Over a couple of minutes I screenshotted their locations on my "find my" app
As you can see on none of the screens are all three phones together or even showing in the same building, one even shows potentially in a neighbouring detached building
That is the problem, now imagine that the building is a 6 story block of flats, or a HMO
How many searches are the Police going to do, merely saying the police don't need justification changes nothing
Edited by Earthdweller on Tuesday 25th February 15:28
I don't think the answer on this is scrapping warrants, it's making the issuing process more efficient.
Maybe automation could be used to quickly log it and issue on balance of probabilities (find my whatever provided, known scrote in building, warrant issued etc). Officer has a poor strike rate, auto-issue revoked for them.
Maybe automation could be used to quickly log it and issue on balance of probabilities (find my whatever provided, known scrote in building, warrant issued etc). Officer has a poor strike rate, auto-issue revoked for them.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Gareth79 said:
Question is whether it's right that police could see the same data and be able to pick which door(s) to bust and houses to turn over.
If the Police think there may be a stolen item in my house they're welcome to have a look around. They don't need to kick the door in, I'll let them in and make them a coffee.Gareth79 said:
What about when you get home to a boarded up door and all your drawers and wardrobes empty and the contents on the floor?
Given the police can't be bothered to turn out for a pair armed with Zombie knives on a rampage in my local town, or investigate a named person in three clear videos robbing cars, or the people smoking spliffs outside primary schools I'm pretty confident they won't bother fitting me up for anything.I have to say my fears of a Police stated have largely evaporated. If they tried to run a police state they'd be doing it with a couple of 5ft tall PCSOs working part time.
Murph7355 said:
I don't think the answer on this is scrapping warrants, it's making the issuing process more efficient.
Maybe automation could be used to quickly log it and issue on balance of probabilities (find my whatever provided, known scrote in building, warrant issued etc). Officer has a poor strike rate, auto-issue revoked for them.
It's not hard to apply for a warrant, nor does it take long but... Maybe automation could be used to quickly log it and issue on balance of probabilities (find my whatever provided, known scrote in building, warrant issued etc). Officer has a poor strike rate, auto-issue revoked for them.
The problem is convincing a Magistrate that you have sufficient grounds for them to sign it
PC ..
"Victim says their stolen phone is in 999 letsby Avenue, according to their app. The building is a block of 56 flats .. their app shows it roughly in the middle of the block"
Magistrate...
"Which flat is it in?"
PC
"Well he says it in one of them"
Magistrate
"Application refused"
Earthdweller said:
It's not hard to apply for a warrant, nor does it take long but...
The problem is convincing a Magistrate that you have sufficient grounds for them to sign it
PC ..
"Victim says their stolen phone is in 999 letsby Avenue, according to their app. The building is a block of 56 flats .. their app shows it roughly in the middle of the block"
Magistrate...
"Which flat is it in?"
PC
"Well he says it in one of them"
Magistrate
"Application refused"
The whole process, from entering to provision.The problem is convincing a Magistrate that you have sufficient grounds for them to sign it
PC ..
"Victim says their stolen phone is in 999 letsby Avenue, according to their app. The building is a block of 56 flats .. their app shows it roughly in the middle of the block"
Magistrate...
"Which flat is it in?"
PC
"Well he says it in one of them"
Magistrate
"Application refused"
If this allows police to kick the doors in of every flat in a block, with no checks and balances, then I don't agree with it.
Work the problem better.
I'd prefer harder stop and search powers. Stand outside the block and s&s the hoodied scrotes etc.
Earthdweller said:
The Police already have plenty of powers to enter property to arrest and search without a warrant, and yes they can already go to a Magistrate 24/7 and get a warrant ... so the powers are there
The problem is being sure that the phone you are looking for is where the "find my" app is saying it is
This is increasingly difficult in built up areas and exacerbated by blocks of flats and houses split into bed sits .. each one being legally a seperate dwelling with its own legal identity
Probably the best way to illustrate the reason why the police don't just "kick the doors" is a serious of screen shots I've just taken
I placed three iPhones, one mine, one my sons, and one my wife's on the kitchen table at the rear left hand side of a largish detached two story house. All three phones are connected to the same network
Over a couple of minutes I screenshotted their locations on my "find my" app
As you can see on none of the screens are all three phones together or even showing in the same building, one even shows potentially in a neighbouring detached building
That is the problem, now imagine that the building is a 6 story block of flats, or a HMO
How many searches are the Police going to do, merely saying the police don't need justification changes nothing
You're overlooking the pace at which the technology is developing. By the time this legislation is in place and available for use, most new devices will support newer implementations of Bluetooth and utra-wideband (UWB) which allow precision finding with directions (not map directions like general Find My but actual "5m left, 1m forward" precision directions) from up to 60m away. This makes a warrantless power of entry more feasible. The problem is being sure that the phone you are looking for is where the "find my" app is saying it is
This is increasingly difficult in built up areas and exacerbated by blocks of flats and houses split into bed sits .. each one being legally a seperate dwelling with its own legal identity
Probably the best way to illustrate the reason why the police don't just "kick the doors" is a serious of screen shots I've just taken
I placed three iPhones, one mine, one my sons, and one my wife's on the kitchen table at the rear left hand side of a largish detached two story house. All three phones are connected to the same network
Over a couple of minutes I screenshotted their locations on my "find my" app
As you can see on none of the screens are all three phones together or even showing in the same building, one even shows potentially in a neighbouring detached building
That is the problem, now imagine that the building is a 6 story block of flats, or a HMO
How many searches are the Police going to do, merely saying the police don't need justification changes nothing
Edited by Earthdweller on Tuesday 25th February 15:28
Hill92 said:
You're overlooking the pace at which the technology is developing. By the time this legislation is in place and available for use, most new devices will support newer implementations of Bluetooth and utra-wideband (UWB) which allow precision finding with directions (not map directions like general Find My but actual "5m left, 1m forward" precision directions) from up to 60m away. This makes a warrantless power of entry more feasible.
And equally less necessary.If it's that accurate, persuading the magistrate would be a piece of piss. Though could also be automated/"AI'd" (feckin AI).
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